Posted on Mar 28, 2016
Should the Height and Weight standards matter if they pass the physical fitness test??
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H&W and PT test seem to be a controversial discussion nowadays. Some say H&W shouldn't matter if the Soldiers are fit enough to pass the requirements. Some say the standards where set for the older generations before now. Some say PT is the only way to measure leadership and discipline. What are your thoughts?!!
Height and Weight
APFT
Fitness
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 93
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Great discussion on this topic. Here are some thoughts:
H&W standards absolutely matter even if you pass your physical fitness test. The military is an organization built to service the masses versus the individual. We will always have individuals who pass the test yet do not meet appearance (H&W) standards. You can argue that many of these folks are victims of genetics but I would ask you to dig a little deeper and see exactly why said individual is overweight. Typically, H&W issues occur after someone enters the force. Otherwise, we typically would not have let them in to begin with or they met standards through Basic Training. The picture that stated this discussion is likely a good example. That guy would not have met entry requirements. So, ask yourself or your troops, "What has changed since the last time they met H&W plus PT standards?"
Another issue directly related to H&W is public appearance. While you may not think that Joe Civilian pays attention to you outside the wire, you'd be wrong. We all work for the taxpayers (of which you are one) and there are expectations to how that money is being spent. When I see A1C Pick-A-Name rolling down the sidewalk looking like ass (crappy uniform, crappy haircut, unfit, and generally frumpy), I'm rightfully pissed off and you should be, too. We, the military, have spent several decades convincing the world (especially our U.S. citizens) that we are the most professional, well-disciplined, and combat-ready force on earth. With that burden comes not only our actual ability, but also our role as a representative portion of the population. Public perception drives public support and instills confidence in our citizens. Looking the part, in today's media-driven environment, is critical.
Finally, I think that personal appearance and pride in the uniform goes beyond "how" you look and reflects an underlying work ethic and desire for perfection. If you don't care about standards or Dress and Appearance regulations because then what else are you indifferent about? Is that extra screw really necessary on the tank turret? One less rivet won't matter. Weapons cleaning....overrated. H&W, physical fitness, job performance, personal appearance, and being a visual representation of this nation are bedrocks of the profession of arms. Btw, we can all move on to a different profession if we no longer fit this one.
P.S. As a leader, any lapse in standards by me only served to deteriorate unit cohesion. A leader who does not meet ALL the standards is a hypocrite when he is forced to discipline others who fail to meet standards. I challenged my Airmen point these thing out and I held them accountable for their failure to do so.
H&W standards absolutely matter even if you pass your physical fitness test. The military is an organization built to service the masses versus the individual. We will always have individuals who pass the test yet do not meet appearance (H&W) standards. You can argue that many of these folks are victims of genetics but I would ask you to dig a little deeper and see exactly why said individual is overweight. Typically, H&W issues occur after someone enters the force. Otherwise, we typically would not have let them in to begin with or they met standards through Basic Training. The picture that stated this discussion is likely a good example. That guy would not have met entry requirements. So, ask yourself or your troops, "What has changed since the last time they met H&W plus PT standards?"
Another issue directly related to H&W is public appearance. While you may not think that Joe Civilian pays attention to you outside the wire, you'd be wrong. We all work for the taxpayers (of which you are one) and there are expectations to how that money is being spent. When I see A1C Pick-A-Name rolling down the sidewalk looking like ass (crappy uniform, crappy haircut, unfit, and generally frumpy), I'm rightfully pissed off and you should be, too. We, the military, have spent several decades convincing the world (especially our U.S. citizens) that we are the most professional, well-disciplined, and combat-ready force on earth. With that burden comes not only our actual ability, but also our role as a representative portion of the population. Public perception drives public support and instills confidence in our citizens. Looking the part, in today's media-driven environment, is critical.
Finally, I think that personal appearance and pride in the uniform goes beyond "how" you look and reflects an underlying work ethic and desire for perfection. If you don't care about standards or Dress and Appearance regulations because then what else are you indifferent about? Is that extra screw really necessary on the tank turret? One less rivet won't matter. Weapons cleaning....overrated. H&W, physical fitness, job performance, personal appearance, and being a visual representation of this nation are bedrocks of the profession of arms. Btw, we can all move on to a different profession if we no longer fit this one.
P.S. As a leader, any lapse in standards by me only served to deteriorate unit cohesion. A leader who does not meet ALL the standards is a hypocrite when he is forced to discipline others who fail to meet standards. I challenged my Airmen point these thing out and I held them accountable for their failure to do so.
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MAJ (Join to see)
Well said, Sir
I am OIC of APFT in a Reserve MSU and while most of my Soldiers pass APFT and HT/WT, some do not. Assisting them to physical readiness and eventual passing or surpassing standards benefits their personal health, unit readiness and moral of the unit. Physical health is part of Comprehensive Health. We need to be strong and proficient to expert in our MSO and Warrior Skills.
I am OIC of APFT in a Reserve MSU and while most of my Soldiers pass APFT and HT/WT, some do not. Assisting them to physical readiness and eventual passing or surpassing standards benefits their personal health, unit readiness and moral of the unit. Physical health is part of Comprehensive Health. We need to be strong and proficient to expert in our MSO and Warrior Skills.
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MSG (Join to see)
when you eat for free sometimes it gets out of hand unless your activity level also increases, been there done that 08-09, had to adjust my intake, was heading way over my weight limit, even though working out everyday as well as going on missions, choose the meals that you eat and when, portions there is no reson to see fat body in uniform even though you might pass apft there is appearance, cpt luisa with all due restpect thats a well canned response, i was a 1fg msu reserves, med field is the worst, i also served ca 7 yrs reserves, spent my last 2 years once a month on conference calls with bn/ bgd ammed to why my sms were faililling and still in, while in ca never had the problem you did'nt pass ok go with regs, still cant do it bye, bye. in my 31 yrs ammed reserve commands have been my sore point, had an ltc wanted me to pass sm on apft i did not witness so that sm could be promoteted, with me knowing that the sm could,nt pass with a hydrolic lift and drag car, i refused was relieved best day in my life next guy was even tougher, i know that ammed is cleaning up i was part of it but dont feed me bs
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LTC John Wilson
Respectfully, Sir, If the "physical appearance" standard is scientifically irrelevant to the combat effectiveness of the military force (and it IS), then it should be abandoned. Additionally, the role of genetics in the equation cannot be wished away...especially if we are to remain a "diverse" military force.
For people who naturally carry higher levels of bodyfat, attempts at radical bodyfat reduction can be expensive in terms of the psychological and physiological costs necessary for dropping below what for them would be normal bodyfat levels.
Indeed, the Airman who takes radical measures to max the USAF PFT waist measurement standard may put themselves at higher risk of death than a Very Obese Soldier who cannot even pass the Tap Test (but exceeds APFT standards). Studies have proven that people with a BMI of less than 18.5 are at a higher risk of death than those who carry a BMI of 30 (especially if the latter are physically active -- i.e. they have to show up for Physical Training every morning Mon-Fri)
The British found out the hard way how important it is to have thicker Soldiers in Combat and what a liability skinny PT Studs are. (See Schoch, Bruce P., "Logistics in the Falklands War," Army Logistician, Vol 18, No. 3, May-Jun 1986, pp. 6-7, http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/PDFDocs/1986may_jun/toc_86mj.pdf)
As for the perception of the Tax Paying General Public, it is important for the Leadership to explain in rational terms why the subjective standard called "Military Appearance" is pure vanity that is only fashionable in Western society at the present. We must inform them that Strength and health are not dependent on low bodyfat levels. We must help them to understand that such is a costly, unnecessary luxury. We must help them understand that they should understand that we prize Service Members who are content to be merely strong, healthy, and physically competent -- who can fight and win the nations wars...not compete and win a Beauty Pageant.
For people who naturally carry higher levels of bodyfat, attempts at radical bodyfat reduction can be expensive in terms of the psychological and physiological costs necessary for dropping below what for them would be normal bodyfat levels.
Indeed, the Airman who takes radical measures to max the USAF PFT waist measurement standard may put themselves at higher risk of death than a Very Obese Soldier who cannot even pass the Tap Test (but exceeds APFT standards). Studies have proven that people with a BMI of less than 18.5 are at a higher risk of death than those who carry a BMI of 30 (especially if the latter are physically active -- i.e. they have to show up for Physical Training every morning Mon-Fri)
The British found out the hard way how important it is to have thicker Soldiers in Combat and what a liability skinny PT Studs are. (See Schoch, Bruce P., "Logistics in the Falklands War," Army Logistician, Vol 18, No. 3, May-Jun 1986, pp. 6-7, http://www.alu.army.mil/alog/PDFDocs/1986may_jun/toc_86mj.pdf)
As for the perception of the Tax Paying General Public, it is important for the Leadership to explain in rational terms why the subjective standard called "Military Appearance" is pure vanity that is only fashionable in Western society at the present. We must inform them that Strength and health are not dependent on low bodyfat levels. We must help them to understand that such is a costly, unnecessary luxury. We must help them understand that they should understand that we prize Service Members who are content to be merely strong, healthy, and physically competent -- who can fight and win the nations wars...not compete and win a Beauty Pageant.
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Yes. We are a profession and should look the part as well as perform. I don't agree that it is the only way to measure leadership and discipline, it is a marker though.
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H&W should not matter if the Soldier passes the APFT. Like many here, I have been deployed, when the unit was informed stop loss was put into place. It didn't matter if you had failed a PT test, failed H&W, didn't qualify, etc...you were still being deployed. The PT test and H&W are a "Commander's tool to assess the physical readiness" clearly not a deciding factor for deployment or career ender. Ultimately it is up to the Commander to decide if the Soldier is fit enough to complete the mission. This is also why a few years back there was discussion of different PT tests and standards for each MOS.
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Personally, I have know many that think the PT is the way to measure leadership and it's not. There are many people that suck at PT, but kick ass at their jobs. There are many that can kick ass at PT but suck at their jobs. BLUF, Height and weight matter because appearance matters. Sad, but true. PT scores, well, I think as long as they can pass and they are good at their job, I don't care if they got a 300 or not, boards care, but I as a supervisor do not. I care more about the mission and getting the job done. Not everyone can be a PT stud, but you damn well better not make that uniform look bad. At least try to stay in shape. Even if someone is injured, there are other types of exercises they can do to keep their cardio health up.
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i feel that H/W should be subjective. there are plenty of people that exercise regularly and lift weights. as a result they gain muscle mass and their weight increases. technically they may be considered "overweight" for their height even though they are in top shape. should they really be penalized for something such as this??
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The Marines have a CFT and PFT annually. I say if you get a 1st class on both and can perform your mos without physical issues, screw the H/W.
You're not going to find an obese Service member who can pass with a 1st class.
You're not going to find an obese Service member who can pass with a 1st class.
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I could not pass my tape, and I was fat shamed. I don't have many pics of me but this is what the ARMY wanted to call fat even though I always taped with a very low body fat.
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After reviewing a host of comments, it is apparent the Army needs to address the APFT and height/weight issue at the highest levels. I have also known a few soldiers who are able to pass the APFT but struggle with height/weight and the current ineffective body fat measuring tests. Therefore, they are not heralded as good soldiers because they "fail to meet the standard" despite being able to destroy the APFT which is supposed to be an indicator of a soldier's "overall" fitness.
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SGM (Join to see)
We still have to maintain a military appearance and maintain total fitness. Soldiers exercising proper nutrition is our greatest challenge.
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MSG (Join to see)
SGM (Join to see) - I'm sorry but military appearance is subjective. A Soldier is a Soldier and if they can conduct the activities of one and meet the rigorous physical demands of their job, they shouldn't be penalized because of their weight. I feel the notion of "military appearance" is archaic. Especially since starching & polishing boots have gone to the wayside. As for me, I'm not a big guy but I know lots of really good leaders who are bigger but better than most of the more standard "fit-looking" peers. Soldiering is multi-dimensional these days, SGM. We are no longer the military of old.
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Like the official photo, I think ht/wt standards generally carry too much weight, no pun intended, and both are classic cases of form over substance. If fitness is the overall concern, than personally I don't care too much what the person looks like. After all, one of the major tenets of allowing women into combat units is "if they can do the job" right? (of course, another argument)
If appearance is the concern, then it is very arbitrary. Granted commanders and their senior NCOs should have some leeway in how their soldiers look, but all too frequently LT Chubby can pass everything and doesn't appear "soldierly" and SGT Football doesn't, yet the latter is more fit and looks like a soldier.
I think PT is not directly relational to leadership, but just a measure of an individual's ability to perform the most basic infantry tasks (raising oneself from the ground, front and back, and cardiovascular endurance). And it doesn't necessarily require discipline either since some much work at it and others not so much.
If appearance is the concern, then it is very arbitrary. Granted commanders and their senior NCOs should have some leeway in how their soldiers look, but all too frequently LT Chubby can pass everything and doesn't appear "soldierly" and SGT Football doesn't, yet the latter is more fit and looks like a soldier.
I think PT is not directly relational to leadership, but just a measure of an individual's ability to perform the most basic infantry tasks (raising oneself from the ground, front and back, and cardiovascular endurance). And it doesn't necessarily require discipline either since some much work at it and others not so much.
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Yes, it should matter... I don't think passing is a goal... Maxing should be the goal. The goal should also be to look good in uniform and well represent your service and your country. I understand the standards are never perfect, but we need standards just the same. MSG Shawn Eaton ... I a can remember seeing more than one fat Soldier working on their necks vs. their waste line. I am almost 55 and still wear class Bs to work... It is not easy, but I still wear the same size I did in 1995...
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