Posted on Mar 28, 2016
Should the military buy their new weapons off the shelf?
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I share his frustration and anger over the current process. Remember it was this same process that gave us the 9mm Beretta (aka M9) which replaced the old reliable 1911 45cal APC. Frankly with all the improvements made on John Brown's pistol and advancements in ballistics...the 45 APC is now a weapon of choice for many. The Chief is right, we need to move on.
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/03/27/army-chief-you-want-new-pistol-send-me-cabelas-17-million/82132450/
http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2016/03/27/army-chief-you-want-new-pistol-send-me-cabelas-17-million/82132450/
Pistol Shooting
Equipment
Procurement
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 16
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Wasn't the reasoning to get the M9 more ammo? If that is the case, then any weapon that carries only seven shots will have an issue. I don't mind the M9, but I've never fired it in combat. Stopping power...if he's close enough for you to use it, something is wrong right there. I like firing the .45, I own a .45, and can see the case for a higher caliber weapon. But at what point do we say when? If round capacity is a major factor, how could the .45 compete with the 9mm or .40? I'm not a grunt, but was always told the simple things matter. Oz = LBS = PAIN. So you take one thing away, but give me three additional items. Who is the winner in this one? Isn't this along the lines of the argument of moving away from the M4? Not enough stopping power compared to the AK or M14? But I can carry more ammo with the 5.56, and the 9mm is a fairly universal round also.
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SSG Warren Swan
LTC Thomas Tennant - I've got nothing on this one Sir. My POG leg ass will shut up and let the grown folks talk.
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LTC Thomas Tennant
No...keep talking. ....you have proven my point, when it comes to war fighting we have to take into consideration the individual shooter. The key is training and the average "POG" is never given the training they need to make an informed decision that is best for them. I must of fired about 30 makes and models of pistols before I settled on my Glock 19. I could have just as easily gone to a Glock 17 or another make. I just like the feel and recoil of the G-19. I also like the vast selection of newer "personal defense" rounds on the market. The newer Hollow Point (HP) rounds you can get for all calibers are a vast improvement over what was available back in the 1970's when I started shooting. And they keep getting better every day. OBTW....to get out of POG status, UTube is your friend.... ;-)
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SSG Warren Swan
LTC Thomas Tennant - Sir I have a lot of experience with the M9 as a MP using it. I really didn't mind it. Easy as hell to fire, clean, and maintain (any weapon is easy if you use it regularly). But it's a weight and counterweight issue to me. What are we willing to give up to get additional stopping power? IF the branches allowed the individual services or worse individual units to pick their own weapons, we'd be all over the place. Jointness would be a passing fad. You might have some Soldier who thinks carrying a DE .50 is the way to go. How in the hell does that make sense? Who is going to maintain the ammo for that thing? Humping that thing would be "AWESOME" until his hip and thigh hurts like hell. A Sailor might want to go back in history and say he wants a 16in hand cannon. Harking back to the battleship days. The AF well they can't be outdone, so issue every Airman a 30mm Gatling hand cannon. There needs to be a standard across the board that represents the force as a whole, and not the individual only. With the push to having women in, the hands becomes an issue, and no we cannot issue women bigger hands. We need an effective compromise that allows the stopping power we want, the ability to find rounds anywhere, and universal acceptance in the forces. So to me, going individual won't work. It needs to be a standardized process that reflects everyone and not the "cool" factor with custom rails, lights, and optics. The more tech involved, the more time it will be down broken. So while I love my H&K .45UCP, it's NOT an effective concealed weapon, but gives a false sense of "coolness". My 92FS is not sexy, small as hell compared to my H&K, BUT is extremely effective for what I need it to do without a lot of "cool" parts, excess weight, and if I need that, more than likely you're close to me. I can reach out and touch you just fine. Sir I can't get out of POG status. I respect my Grunts, but this whole more is better..TO ME is MORE WEIGHT to hump, and won't be too cool later on.
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LTC Thomas Tennant
SSG Swan - All good points. That is why I stress we limit the approved weapons to full size pistols and limit calibers to 9mm, 10mm, 40cal and 45APC. I would even limit gun selection to those with US manufacturing plants.
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I would just like to try and see someone go into Cabela's with a GPC and say give me all the Glock 19s you have.
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CW4 Scott Hyde
LTC (Join to see) - SF has a pretty small footprint when compared to the entire Army but they have the logistics and maintenance programs in place to support their M19s. 500 pistols versus 50,000. Point being, drive by fieldings with zero regard for cradle to grave support will leave you with a problem. Glock could certainly support the program as they supply the M17 to several countries and countless law enforcement agencies. Everone wants a Gator but they are not worth a nickel when you cannot get the parts to fix it.
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I believe most understand the need for standardization and the terrible procurement system throughout the DOD and most law enforcement. But, it would seem that for the purpose a sidearm serves, there should be commonality. There are plenty of spec available for the intelligentsia to analyze to come up with the best caliber and style to meet the needs of the person carrying the firearm. Our local law enforcement has gone all the way around the bend and now goes with the .45, you know the one,
"A highly religious man who was a former pacifist and the legendary pistol he carried are responsible for one of the most impressive acts of an American fighting man in the nation’s history.
His name was Sgt. Alvin York and during World War I he used a M1911 .45-caliber pistol to stop an attack by six German soldiers while he helped assault a German machine-gun nest near Chatel-Chéhéry on the Western Front.
On Oct. 8, 1918, York drew his pistol after emptying his Enfield rifle at the enemy. Then he was rushed by the bayonet charge—and had one bullet left in his M1911 when four German officers and 128 German soldiers surrendered to him and his command."
"A highly religious man who was a former pacifist and the legendary pistol he carried are responsible for one of the most impressive acts of an American fighting man in the nation’s history.
His name was Sgt. Alvin York and during World War I he used a M1911 .45-caliber pistol to stop an attack by six German soldiers while he helped assault a German machine-gun nest near Chatel-Chéhéry on the Western Front.
On Oct. 8, 1918, York drew his pistol after emptying his Enfield rifle at the enemy. Then he was rushed by the bayonet charge—and had one bullet left in his M1911 when four German officers and 128 German soldiers surrendered to him and his command."
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No need for a maintenace program. Just slap down some cash for a new pustil and go. If you gave cash to buy a pistol, Joes would be buying High Points and dropping the rest on beer. Their buddy said High Point was the way to go so why not?
The 1911 is a great pistol but those in the racks through the 90s were bought/made in the 40s and rebuilt over the years. I like the 1911 better than the M9 but what we had needed replacing. No single pistol will satisfy everyone. 9mm is a NATO standard, .45 ACP is a better round. If you cannot shoot, neither work well.
The procurement process is long and costly but you buy the maintenance support over the life of the system. While you and I can buy a pistol for seemingly far less than the government, we are not buying a cradle to grave log and maint package with it.
The 1911 is a great pistol but those in the racks through the 90s were bought/made in the 40s and rebuilt over the years. I like the 1911 better than the M9 but what we had needed replacing. No single pistol will satisfy everyone. 9mm is a NATO standard, .45 ACP is a better round. If you cannot shoot, neither work well.
The procurement process is long and costly but you buy the maintenance support over the life of the system. While you and I can buy a pistol for seemingly far less than the government, we are not buying a cradle to grave log and maint package with it.
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I think that he was just using Cabella's as an example. Our current system is expensive, ineffective and just plain stupid.
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