Posted on Mar 5, 2014
Should the military grant a 4 year "General Studies" degree to soldiers whom have served in the Armed Forces?
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I am currently working with a LTC who is pursuing his PhD and at current, is posing a question for a research paper about the military partnering with higher education institutions with the question above.
In an economy with a financial crisis, and knowing that a four-year degree is starting to become the “standard” certification for employment beyond the military, should the military actively push this initiative?
I know from my experiences, working on the civilian government side, that it is virtually impossible to switch to a GS grade job without a degree. With all of the training and education that the Armed Forces provide for its SMs should that equate to an earned degree after service? If so, why? And how long should
the soldier serve before earning a “general studies” degree?
In an economy with a financial crisis, and knowing that a four-year degree is starting to become the “standard” certification for employment beyond the military, should the military actively push this initiative?
I know from my experiences, working on the civilian government side, that it is virtually impossible to switch to a GS grade job without a degree. With all of the training and education that the Armed Forces provide for its SMs should that equate to an earned degree after service? If so, why? And how long should
the soldier serve before earning a “general studies” degree?
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Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 119
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No, I don not think common soldiers should be given degrees. I do think there needs to be guidelines per NCO schools, as well as specialty schools to convert them to operational credits for certain degree paths or credits for General studies; subcatorgized by electives or specialties. There should also be differing criteria, with regards to mandated daily tasks bestowed upon non commissioned leaders as well as commissioned and warranted officers. The amount of admin required these days by frontline combat leaders when in garrison, heavily politicized or multinational roles is staggering. These tasks should be converted to administration credits as well. I do believe their is a great amount of relivance to civilian jobs, especially larger corporations. As far as operations in business I wholly claim my NCO time built into that equation of work experience. There are several private schools who conduct an assessment towards credits built on your certifications and military job functions and roles.
On the GS scale a little known fact is you are assessed by a computer system. Which means you just frame the job duties/requirements and add them into your cv resume. If this is done successfully you may relate job experience and bypass the lower levels through to around or at GS 8/9. I haven't accepted any GS jobs, but was able to work the system in regards to entry level positions being related to job experience on several occasions. Though the GS application process is usually a numbers game, where "framing" is something all levels of successful candidates in the job field manipulate their resume to reflect duties that match or can be comparable to the position applied.
Try it, the more you know!
On the GS scale a little known fact is you are assessed by a computer system. Which means you just frame the job duties/requirements and add them into your cv resume. If this is done successfully you may relate job experience and bypass the lower levels through to around or at GS 8/9. I haven't accepted any GS jobs, but was able to work the system in regards to entry level positions being related to job experience on several occasions. Though the GS application process is usually a numbers game, where "framing" is something all levels of successful candidates in the job field manipulate their resume to reflect duties that match or can be comparable to the position applied.
Try it, the more you know!
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I would say yes if it was after 6 years of service. Give a 2 year degree in general studies after 4 years of service.
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SGM (Join to see)
"Give a 2 year degree ...", not EARN.
Look, I know no one is interested in what an old guy did, especially if it's one of those, "I had to walk 10 miles to school through a blinding snowstorm, uphill both ways", stories. Fortunately, that's not my story.
My first enlistment was for 3 years, that I served at Ft Hood and in Germany after Basic and AIT. I was offered the chance to go to night school, and I took it. Over my 3 year enlistment, I earned 33 hours towards my degree, of which 18 were accepted at the school I went to.
Was that fair? Why not? Proud as I am to be an Infantryman, just WHAT in 3 (or even 4) years of Infantry experience is equivalent to a 2 year college degree?
There are opportunities, for night school, the GI Bill, military schools, correspondence schools, online training, the Internet, and many things that I didn't have when I first got in. Responsibility is one of the things we learn in the military, It's one of our core values, isn't it? So why aren't we expecting servicemembers to make responsible choices, instead of partying/resting/sleeping/whatever at night and expected to be handed something? (Yes, I've got several combat deployments, and I know the op-tempo makes school hard there, but no deployment lasts forever, and there is more to do between deployments than rest up for the next one.)
Look, I know no one is interested in what an old guy did, especially if it's one of those, "I had to walk 10 miles to school through a blinding snowstorm, uphill both ways", stories. Fortunately, that's not my story.
My first enlistment was for 3 years, that I served at Ft Hood and in Germany after Basic and AIT. I was offered the chance to go to night school, and I took it. Over my 3 year enlistment, I earned 33 hours towards my degree, of which 18 were accepted at the school I went to.
Was that fair? Why not? Proud as I am to be an Infantryman, just WHAT in 3 (or even 4) years of Infantry experience is equivalent to a 2 year college degree?
There are opportunities, for night school, the GI Bill, military schools, correspondence schools, online training, the Internet, and many things that I didn't have when I first got in. Responsibility is one of the things we learn in the military, It's one of our core values, isn't it? So why aren't we expecting servicemembers to make responsible choices, instead of partying/resting/sleeping/whatever at night and expected to be handed something? (Yes, I've got several combat deployments, and I know the op-tempo makes school hard there, but no deployment lasts forever, and there is more to do between deployments than rest up for the next one.)
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Personally I think they should... but that's coming from someone in the intel career field. Most places will actually wave a college degree if you have lots of experience anyway. And most places would prefer the experience over college... not that going to college is a bad thing or anything, but I think it is something that should be considered.
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SGT Patrick McCullough
Like state before critical assessment isn't taken into account. While I will not attack you while operating in forward combat in OIF some of the intel operators on the ground were completely inept and led us into ambushes when it was clear by all except them we were being deceived. Again, I do believe that especially in admin heavy MOS's there should be an equivalency scale towards accreditation which takes into account certifications and specialized schools. I don't think a pass or fail system would be applicable to a collegian degree system. Granted there are many below average colleges.
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Interesting idea/discussion.
While I would not say that they should be awarded a degree, I would not be against awarding credits towards a degree for specific jobs such as:
Signal: Communications or IT degree
Intelligence: Analytic degrees or something like Public Policy or Political Science
Field Artillery: Math
This would allow the soldier to still earn it and not further cheapen a college degree in this society, which is bad enough.
While I would not say that they should be awarded a degree, I would not be against awarding credits towards a degree for specific jobs such as:
Signal: Communications or IT degree
Intelligence: Analytic degrees or something like Public Policy or Political Science
Field Artillery: Math
This would allow the soldier to still earn it and not further cheapen a college degree in this society, which is bad enough.
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SP5 Richard Maze
The trouble with awarding credits, but not degrees, is that many colleges would never accept the credits. They'd be worthless for many soldiers after they get out of the Army.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
I got 12 credits towards my Master's degree after completing the Captain's Career Course. Finished that master's too.
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Sir, I'm proud of what I have achieved as an enlisted man, but basically we are the blue collar workers in the Army's equivalent of the average car company. You don't grant degrees to the workers on the assembly line for length of service.
Besides, as other have noted, the military offers you tons of opportunities to get an education. I got my bachelors on the GI bill 25 years ago. I'm 59 years old now, and once again using my GI education opportunities to train in computer security. I don't look down on people who won't make use of the opportunities they are given, but neither do I want them handed what I chose to work for.
Last point, would you willingly hire someone for a position requiring a 4-year degree based on the award of a "General Studies" degree? No, I'm not saying you wouldn't recognize a soldier as being disciplined, having management experience, and motivated to get the job done. I'm asking what additional does a "General Studies" degree bring to the table in addition to what the servicemember already brings?
Besides, as other have noted, the military offers you tons of opportunities to get an education. I got my bachelors on the GI bill 25 years ago. I'm 59 years old now, and once again using my GI education opportunities to train in computer security. I don't look down on people who won't make use of the opportunities they are given, but neither do I want them handed what I chose to work for.
Last point, would you willingly hire someone for a position requiring a 4-year degree based on the award of a "General Studies" degree? No, I'm not saying you wouldn't recognize a soldier as being disciplined, having management experience, and motivated to get the job done. I'm asking what additional does a "General Studies" degree bring to the table in addition to what the servicemember already brings?
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I don't agree with giving it to any and everyone but I do believe some jobs rate it because they're military jobs do equate to civilian jobs. Corpsmen/Firemen/MP/Mechanics. With those jobs you're constantly receiving training throughout your career.
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CPO (Join to see)
I would like to add Photographers, Journalists, Graphic Designers to your list...from personal experience that is. Great point.
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No. While universities do grant Soldiers certain credits for things like military schools, etc., to be given four years of credit for general studies is ridiculous. We have to earn those college credits like everyone else.
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One only need to look at American Council on Education (ACE) book to see that many of the schools attended by military personnel receive collage credit. Further more The military gives individuals several different type of monetary aide, such as the GI bill and Tuition forgiveness. Many post have on base education centers and schools on them. So my answer is No, individuals should not be "Given" a general studies degree" they should be assisted by the service and indeed, urged to further their education but not gratis, that degree would be worthless.
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CWO2 Shelby DuBois
Worthless? I don't think so. This is not about ego's getting stroked or belittling gents with degrees hanging their walls. It's about competition for civilian jobs. I want enlisted men and women who've put 10 or more years on the line to have a better shot at a career and a more level playing field. I'll take the 10 year vet over a two year degree if that's the differentiating factor.
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LT Joseph Jones
CWO2, if you want to make them competitive give them the opportunity and a pathway not the degree. Online degree factories have done what you are suggesting and it has filled the job market with people who are not ready for the jobs they have.
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CWO2 Shelby DuBois
On line degree factories vs a degree earned in your field or MOS? I'll still take the military expertise and reward the veteran for a job well done. Not everyone wants to sacrifice quality of life while on active duty and its pompous to believe that everyone has that time. I, and a lot of people I worked with on active duty, worked a lot more than 50 hour work weeks. But I saw a lot of people with cushy 40 hour work week jobs that don't take them away from family and I think that's the division in the argument.
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PO1 John Pokrzywa
It bears pointing out that the ACE only gives *recommendation* for credit. It is not the same as actual credit, nor do all (most?) schools accept or grant it.
I think anything over 4 years service should at *least* warrant an associate's degree in the field of expertise the person works in. I got an associate's degree before I joined (would have continued farther but was too young to get a student loan without a cosigner) and there is NOTHING that is taught in college for most fields at the associate level that is not at least matched if not exceeded by military training and service. I understand some services do give associate's degrees for technical training, but not all do.
Look at it this way. You have core subjects. These are easily covered by technical training schools. Writing history and lit? Unless you're a journalist, there's plenty of writing and history involved in all the mandatory GMT, evals, official messages, etc that could cover most of it. And hands on? Few colleges can offer near the practical experience.
Are there exceptions? Sure. But it seems many seem to think their own degrees couldn't possibly be matched by years of service, and for some reason, want people to not be given a chance to succeed afterwards, either. If you're an officer, good for you. You found a way. Your reward is more responsibility and a hell of a lot more pay while you're in. After everyone is out, though, we are all Americans, and equal again. Perhaps a fighting chance on the job market, especially since more and more careers want degrees (even ones that didn't use to) isn't something to begrudge people.
I think anything over 4 years service should at *least* warrant an associate's degree in the field of expertise the person works in. I got an associate's degree before I joined (would have continued farther but was too young to get a student loan without a cosigner) and there is NOTHING that is taught in college for most fields at the associate level that is not at least matched if not exceeded by military training and service. I understand some services do give associate's degrees for technical training, but not all do.
Look at it this way. You have core subjects. These are easily covered by technical training schools. Writing history and lit? Unless you're a journalist, there's plenty of writing and history involved in all the mandatory GMT, evals, official messages, etc that could cover most of it. And hands on? Few colleges can offer near the practical experience.
Are there exceptions? Sure. But it seems many seem to think their own degrees couldn't possibly be matched by years of service, and for some reason, want people to not be given a chance to succeed afterwards, either. If you're an officer, good for you. You found a way. Your reward is more responsibility and a hell of a lot more pay while you're in. After everyone is out, though, we are all Americans, and equal again. Perhaps a fighting chance on the job market, especially since more and more careers want degrees (even ones that didn't use to) isn't something to begrudge people.
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As a follow up and quasi-PSA I want to pass along something I learned the hard way: When using a school which will grant a degree via online campus/classes be sure to verify that the university is "Regionally" accredited vs "Nationally" accredited. If you want your online degree to be on par with a traditional brick-and-mortar degree producing institution then it needs to be Regionally accredited. The litmus test is to contact a traditional university (i.e. University of Houston) and ask if they will accept transfer credits from University X. If not, then you've probably got yourself a degree mill. Before you spend precious time and money make sure you ask and verify their accreditation status.
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