Posted on Jun 15, 2014
Should you have to Serve inorder to "EARN" your Rights of Citizenship?
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After all these years of being in Service and going different places, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of Americans are arrogant, ignorant, and materialistic, and take their Liberties for granted. I think as a whole America has lost its pride. They don't even recite the Pledge of Allegiance and the National Anthem in school. When you watch a sports game here in the US and they play the Star Spangled Banner, people sit, keep their hats on, don't t know the words. Go to a sports arena in another country, the entire stadium stands and sings. I feel if people had to Serve in order to earn their rights of Citizenship, there would be more Pride and Cohesion, and Respect, and people would not take things for granted. Countries such as Israel require it, and those born here in the US still return to their "Motherland" to serve minimum 2 yrs. Why not us?
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Citizenship
Citizenship
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 14
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Robert Heinlein (author of Starship Trooper) firmly believed that anyone who wanted the right to vote should first complete military service. Those who chose NOT to complete military service could continue in their everyday lives but had no right to vote or make decisions on how things were done in a democracy/republic. I've never argued with that suggestion - always said it would get rid of the BS we go through with a civilian government......
But, it's a idle dream.
But, it's a idle dream.
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WO1 (Join to see)
While Heinlein's model for obtaining citizenship is a good base to explore, I believe there are many holes (as mentioned in other responses) that need to be addressed and patched.
The two cents that I would like to add would be that Heinlein's model was based on a futuristic and (more often than not) lethal environment. The mortality rate in during basic training alone was substantially higher than any training our soldiers receive today, including our special operations personnel. In my opinion, the idea wasn't just to "have skin in the game," but to survive the "short" enlistment required to become a citizen.
That being said, I like the idea behind serving in order to influence and gain access to government programs. Naturalization could be the initiating process followed by aptitude and physical exams to determine the services for which citizen-hopefuls would qualify. Some of these organizations (aside from the military) could include the Peace Corps, Americorps, PHSCC, and NOAA Corps. This should address some of the physical limitations mentioned in other responses.
As for the major issue of having well educated and informed citizens take an active roll in politics, I don't have a solid answer. The process for educating people can be time consuming and expensive and would depend on how well educated you want your citizens to be. What should the curriculum include? When should classes/training be scheduled? What are the consequences for failing to meet the standards?
I personally like the concept and would greatly enjoy seeing a theoretical model fleshed out.
The two cents that I would like to add would be that Heinlein's model was based on a futuristic and (more often than not) lethal environment. The mortality rate in during basic training alone was substantially higher than any training our soldiers receive today, including our special operations personnel. In my opinion, the idea wasn't just to "have skin in the game," but to survive the "short" enlistment required to become a citizen.
That being said, I like the idea behind serving in order to influence and gain access to government programs. Naturalization could be the initiating process followed by aptitude and physical exams to determine the services for which citizen-hopefuls would qualify. Some of these organizations (aside from the military) could include the Peace Corps, Americorps, PHSCC, and NOAA Corps. This should address some of the physical limitations mentioned in other responses.
As for the major issue of having well educated and informed citizens take an active roll in politics, I don't have a solid answer. The process for educating people can be time consuming and expensive and would depend on how well educated you want your citizens to be. What should the curriculum include? When should classes/training be scheduled? What are the consequences for failing to meet the standards?
I personally like the concept and would greatly enjoy seeing a theoretical model fleshed out.
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PO1 (Join to see)
Personally - yeah, I think you might have some good points there. My thoughts regarding Peace Corps, etc., is it basically allows anyone to gain citizenship/voting rights without having been in the military, which generall avoids and voids the entire idea of requiring military service to be permitted to vote and decide how things happen.
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LTC Paul Labrador
Remember that in the "Heinlein model" citizenship came with Federal service. Now, it's been a while since I've read the book, but I don't remember it ever specificaly stating that Federal service only equated military service.
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SSG Roger Ayscue
LTC Paul Labrador - I agree 100%. I would love to see the following:
1) If you do not pay taxes, you do not vote. If you got no skin in the game you should not have a say in anything.
2) If you are not a VETERAN or a First Responder you do not hold federal office (No one that has never been willing to put their own behind in harms way should be able to send others to do so.)
3) Drug Test all Welfare recipients, Piss Hot you are cut off. Test for Nicotine, and Alcohol as well as drugs. (If you got money for smokes and beer, you don't need my money for food.)
4) No new kids while you are on Welfare. Don't breed them IF YOU can not feed them.
5) On Welfare you do not vote. If you voted you do not go one welfare for 6 months after you voted and you do not vote for 12 months after you come off welfare. No one should be allowed to elect politicians that will do as the Democrats have done for 50 plus years, use welfare to buy votes and elections.
The big thing is EVERYTHING is decided by those with skin in the game. If you are happy bellied up to the public trough, and you have subsisted off the Public Teat your entire life and have EARNED NOTHING, you should get to SAY NOTHING about how this nation is run. PERIOD...NO EXCEPTIONS. Life is hard, it is even arder when you are stupid and we have way way too many STUPID people out there voting, and we get what we have now as a result.
1) If you do not pay taxes, you do not vote. If you got no skin in the game you should not have a say in anything.
2) If you are not a VETERAN or a First Responder you do not hold federal office (No one that has never been willing to put their own behind in harms way should be able to send others to do so.)
3) Drug Test all Welfare recipients, Piss Hot you are cut off. Test for Nicotine, and Alcohol as well as drugs. (If you got money for smokes and beer, you don't need my money for food.)
4) No new kids while you are on Welfare. Don't breed them IF YOU can not feed them.
5) On Welfare you do not vote. If you voted you do not go one welfare for 6 months after you voted and you do not vote for 12 months after you come off welfare. No one should be allowed to elect politicians that will do as the Democrats have done for 50 plus years, use welfare to buy votes and elections.
The big thing is EVERYTHING is decided by those with skin in the game. If you are happy bellied up to the public trough, and you have subsisted off the Public Teat your entire life and have EARNED NOTHING, you should get to SAY NOTHING about how this nation is run. PERIOD...NO EXCEPTIONS. Life is hard, it is even arder when you are stupid and we have way way too many STUPID people out there voting, and we get what we have now as a result.
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I have always loved the idea of having to earn your citizenship, but doing so in ways other than the military as well.
Park ranger, social worker, military, police, etc. Allow people to use their in particular skills and abilities to serve this nation and its people to earn their right to vote. This will hopefully bring about more pride and get rid of some of the entitlement programs that are bleeding us dry.
Be nice if citizens didn't have to pay taxes as well...
Park ranger, social worker, military, police, etc. Allow people to use their in particular skills and abilities to serve this nation and its people to earn their right to vote. This will hopefully bring about more pride and get rid of some of the entitlement programs that are bleeding us dry.
Be nice if citizens didn't have to pay taxes as well...
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SSG Roger Ayscue
CPT Zachary Brooks - Why not abolish the IRS and charger a 10% FLAT TAX on everyone, rich and poor...No deductions, No Tax returns, No credits, just pay your 10 percent and it is done.
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SFC Richard Giles
SSG Roger Ayscue - I've been saying this for the last 20 yrs. Make all the money you want, you have 3 months to pay your 10% and be done with it. No extensions, no tax codes, no need for the IRS because the money goes straight to the Gov't. No need for a middle man anymore.
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I have met service members that are also " arrogant, ignorant, and materialistic, and take their Liberties for granted". Serving in the military as a "mandatory check the block" will only make the military a horrible place and will not make the average public any better.
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LTC (Join to see)
SFC Gilley,
I agree there are all kinds serving in the military, but few ETS without having gained some unique perspective on what it truly means to be an American. Certainly, an all-volunteer force is not a scientific sample of society. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but I believe the 1% of serving citizens would do a better job shaping our future.
I agree there are all kinds serving in the military, but few ETS without having gained some unique perspective on what it truly means to be an American. Certainly, an all-volunteer force is not a scientific sample of society. Perhaps I am overly optimistic, but I believe the 1% of serving citizens would do a better job shaping our future.
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1SG (Join to see)
You are correct Sir but would it be the same if everybody in America HAD to serve?
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I don't think military service but certainly some sort of public servant job for a length of time determined by the path chosen.
Some people are not fit for military service, physically and/or mentally, but would be fine to do other things.
Think about if we had some sort of citizenship-earning employs such as follows
Military
Police
Fire
EMT
DPW
Obviously the folks with medical issues would have some kind of exemption from these services. I think it would give a sense of duty and appreciation for the work that the people who really support our infrastructure and communities do, and give the future citizen pride in their service and country. Maybe we would have more people with more consideration and respect for the things most people take for granted.
Some people are not fit for military service, physically and/or mentally, but would be fine to do other things.
Think about if we had some sort of citizenship-earning employs such as follows
Military
Police
Fire
EMT
DPW
Obviously the folks with medical issues would have some kind of exemption from these services. I think it would give a sense of duty and appreciation for the work that the people who really support our infrastructure and communities do, and give the future citizen pride in their service and country. Maybe we would have more people with more consideration and respect for the things most people take for granted.
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I think this is a great topic and something I think often about. I also believe there is something for everyone. If not the military perhaps peace corps or conservation corps, something that gives before taking. Earn the right to receive the blessings this country has the ability to bestow and not demand what you have not contributed to.
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I would never make it mandatory unless someone is seeking federal office (judges included). Nothing in the Constitution nor the Bill of Rights demands military service for citizenship. What if I was born deaf? Sorry, you can't be a citizen. What if I'm a
Pacifist? Sorry, you can't be a citizen.
Pacifist? Sorry, you can't be a citizen.
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CPT Zachary Brooks
This is an even better solution. Find an intelligent way to define elligibility for federal service and apply it to positions such as this only.
Good thought!
Good thought!
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CPL Jay Freeman
There are so many jobs in the dod that we can accommodate everything in some way and pacifist can cook or do supply orders
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I agree I think if you. want to join our country you should most definitely sign up mandatory 4 yrs of service then you can get your citizens ship
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Everybody should give back to the community in some way, whether it be through social/volunteer work, military service, or something else. However, I don't believe citizenship should be contingent on these things, and especially not the right to vote which is guaranteed by the constitution (as indicated by its amendments).
Yes there are a lot of Americans with poor attitudes. However, I don't think nationalism is the answer, and I don't think anybody should be forced to risk their lives against their will by serving in the military. Forcing someone to do something to be a citizen is the exact opposite of the ideal of freedom.
Yes there are a lot of Americans with poor attitudes. However, I don't think nationalism is the answer, and I don't think anybody should be forced to risk their lives against their will by serving in the military. Forcing someone to do something to be a citizen is the exact opposite of the ideal of freedom.
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This is the United States of America, but with the new kids going to school they are not getting the real history anymore. Because of this, may of them want to give up their freedoms for socialism or even to be ruled by a oppressive religion.
Because of this I have come to believe that to become a Citizen and have all the rights and freedoms, everyone, especially immigrants, need to serve in the armed forces or provide specific services for the government if you are unable to serve. This means that If you want to own property, vote, have a job that makes more than $12.00 per hour.
This means that If you want freedoms under the constitution, then you must prove that you deserve to have the freedoms that are afforded citizens.
If you are a refugee or immigrant then you must PROVE that you are patriotic enough to be a citizen and have an extreme desire to learn the language, merge into society, and adhere to the rules and life in this country.
Because of this I have come to believe that to become a Citizen and have all the rights and freedoms, everyone, especially immigrants, need to serve in the armed forces or provide specific services for the government if you are unable to serve. This means that If you want to own property, vote, have a job that makes more than $12.00 per hour.
This means that If you want freedoms under the constitution, then you must prove that you deserve to have the freedoms that are afforded citizens.
If you are a refugee or immigrant then you must PROVE that you are patriotic enough to be a citizen and have an extreme desire to learn the language, merge into society, and adhere to the rules and life in this country.
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Countries that require everyone to serve in military or government service actually have less civil problems than we do.
Taking on the movie "Starship Trooper" Military service means Citizenship would be a wonderful dream. I would like to see it happen.
Taking on the movie "Starship Trooper" Military service means Citizenship would be a wonderful dream. I would like to see it happen.
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