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Let me take a moment to say that I only see my sphere and scope of the Army. I am sure there are other units out there that are still knowledgeable and have exceptional signal leaders. I also want to mention that in no way is this a direct reflection on units as a whole including my own.
If you’re not Signal (specifically 25N, 25Q & possibly 25S, 25B) you might not understand what I am saying.
Anyone who was in during MSE should distinctly remember ARTEP (Army Training and Evaluation Program). When WIN-T replaced MSE that standard that so many of us knew went away. There are justifiable reasons for this; speed of change, complexity of equipment and new MTOE standards. I understand why it was never redone to work with WIN-T.
What I do not understand is why the very fundamentals of our jobs have been forgotten. How no one understands the value of crew drills (or even knows what it is), cross training, proper grounding procedures, site security & defense, equipment preparation, convoy operations, site briefs, night time operations, tactical vs. strategic site layouts, HCLOS is never used, no networking standards are ever used, priorities of work, PACE plans, tactical discipline, jumping, recovery operations, what the DC power cable is and why you need it (completely serious) and maintenance (for instance know why keeping your generator level is important) to just get started.
I was on a Special Duty assignment for 6 years and left big Army when WIN-T was just being implemented. So I am out of the “know” so to speak as to what happened during this time frame. I have been seeing it lately from a position where I oversee many different teams and units.
There are so many other things such as the “tricks of the trade” that are known by older guys like duct taping tent stakes to a wooden sledge hammer to prevent your sledge from breaking.
I have been talking with many of my peers over the last month and even some Warrants and Officers. This appears to be larger than just what I see in my area of influence, and there are others who have went a step farther than me and actually acted on this topic such as this website: http://www.signal-chief.com. There Chief Troy discusses broader issues and tries to present units with lessons learned prior to deploying. While he does a remarkable job and has exceptional insight, I want NCOs to tell me what happened to where the rubber meets the road: signal team leaders.
This concerns me greatly because quite frankly this is what I was raised on and it’s what I know. If we have to do another invasion like OIF1, where we are not on a FOB for the entire deployment and the hazards are more than the occasional mortar round then NCOs I’ll be blunt.
It’s not going to turn out well.
Our chiefs are going to lose their #### on NCOs and Soldiers, NCOs will be getting relief of causes, and whole units will probably get bad images.
I don’t blame these young soldiers, and I really don’t want to blame the NCOs (and sometimes can’t because they themselves were never properly trained).
So help me out, what’s your take on this.
If you’re not Signal (specifically 25N, 25Q & possibly 25S, 25B) you might not understand what I am saying.
Anyone who was in during MSE should distinctly remember ARTEP (Army Training and Evaluation Program). When WIN-T replaced MSE that standard that so many of us knew went away. There are justifiable reasons for this; speed of change, complexity of equipment and new MTOE standards. I understand why it was never redone to work with WIN-T.
What I do not understand is why the very fundamentals of our jobs have been forgotten. How no one understands the value of crew drills (or even knows what it is), cross training, proper grounding procedures, site security & defense, equipment preparation, convoy operations, site briefs, night time operations, tactical vs. strategic site layouts, HCLOS is never used, no networking standards are ever used, priorities of work, PACE plans, tactical discipline, jumping, recovery operations, what the DC power cable is and why you need it (completely serious) and maintenance (for instance know why keeping your generator level is important) to just get started.
I was on a Special Duty assignment for 6 years and left big Army when WIN-T was just being implemented. So I am out of the “know” so to speak as to what happened during this time frame. I have been seeing it lately from a position where I oversee many different teams and units.
There are so many other things such as the “tricks of the trade” that are known by older guys like duct taping tent stakes to a wooden sledge hammer to prevent your sledge from breaking.
I have been talking with many of my peers over the last month and even some Warrants and Officers. This appears to be larger than just what I see in my area of influence, and there are others who have went a step farther than me and actually acted on this topic such as this website: http://www.signal-chief.com. There Chief Troy discusses broader issues and tries to present units with lessons learned prior to deploying. While he does a remarkable job and has exceptional insight, I want NCOs to tell me what happened to where the rubber meets the road: signal team leaders.
This concerns me greatly because quite frankly this is what I was raised on and it’s what I know. If we have to do another invasion like OIF1, where we are not on a FOB for the entire deployment and the hazards are more than the occasional mortar round then NCOs I’ll be blunt.
It’s not going to turn out well.
Our chiefs are going to lose their #### on NCOs and Soldiers, NCOs will be getting relief of causes, and whole units will probably get bad images.
I don’t blame these young soldiers, and I really don’t want to blame the NCOs (and sometimes can’t because they themselves were never properly trained).
So help me out, what’s your take on this.
Signal Corps
Team Leader
25N: Nodal Network Systems Operators/Maintainer
25Q: Multichannel Transmission Systems Operator/Maintainer
25W: Telecommunications Operations Chief
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 35
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I believe you have gleaned on an issue that occurs in practically every MOS in the Army. I wonder how much can be rectified by better protecting training time and placing a higher emphasis on hip-pocket training/concurrent training at the Squad level? Or is it more an issue of not knowing what you don't know?
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SSG, your post made me appreciate even more soldiers and leadership in my unit. We are an understrength signal company in a sustainment brigade but time and time again the fundamentals are stressed each drill weekend and at AT. I am the only 25N in the unit, but I have a reliable group of Bravos and Uniforms I can count on to cover JNN ops. As far as field craft goes we have a broad spectrum of experience between deployment and combat MOS prior service (I am prior active 13F) and a tight-knit group of NCOs to train younger soldiers on the things you mentioned (priority of work, defensive positions, etc.).
I came into the TNARNG in 2008 after a ten-year break in service, so when I see a signal E-6 who has never seen a shelter half I have to chuckle. When I came out of active duty, signal was SINCGARS and COMSEC, now it's CISCO and laptops, but I digress... :-)
My point is, the signal "schoolhouse" is teaching kids in 4-5 months what it takes similar civilian occupations years to learn, AND it is an extremely perishable skillset. Consider also, the type of recruit attracted to the Signal world, many of them spent their formative years prior to enlistment behind a keyboard or gamepad. Once they are spit out of the system and arrive at their unit, Active, NG or Reserve, it is the NCOs time to take them under a wing and teach them about being a soldier, passing on knowledge that will keep them alive, or at least not looking like a soup sandwich.
I came into the TNARNG in 2008 after a ten-year break in service, so when I see a signal E-6 who has never seen a shelter half I have to chuckle. When I came out of active duty, signal was SINCGARS and COMSEC, now it's CISCO and laptops, but I digress... :-)
My point is, the signal "schoolhouse" is teaching kids in 4-5 months what it takes similar civilian occupations years to learn, AND it is an extremely perishable skillset. Consider also, the type of recruit attracted to the Signal world, many of them spent their formative years prior to enlistment behind a keyboard or gamepad. Once they are spit out of the system and arrive at their unit, Active, NG or Reserve, it is the NCOs time to take them under a wing and teach them about being a soldier, passing on knowledge that will keep them alive, or at least not looking like a soup sandwich.
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Fort Huachuca bids farewell to Morse code training
It is the end of an era on Fort Huachuca. The last manual Morse code class began on the base, April 27. In the future, the course will be taught by the Air Force on Goodfellow Air Force Base, Texas.
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Don't forget about your 25U! But I think you're spot on in regards to the fundamentals being forgotten. In the three units I've been in this far we hardly cross trained because there's "no time" to do so yet we should know a little about every signal MOS and piece of equipment. NCOs just don't stress that even when the soldiers do.
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SFC (Join to see)
SPC Blackwell I've seen this all too much. This is why as a PSG I always made it a point to stress cross training within the sections and teams. You never know when someone can't deploy or even worse someone goes down during a deployment. You have to be able to fill that gap at all times. You absolutely hit the nail on the head. NCO's have to stress it...ESPECIALLY when the Soldiers are asking for it. That's the best time to do it. The results reaped would be immeasurable! I miss my days as a PSG LOL.
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Its the same in all MOS, soldiers stopped doing basic soldier tasks and focused in on one dimension of the war. I sat on promotion boards and askef real basic stuff a private should know, sgt and SSG were dumbfounded because they came in after 911...
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SPC(P) (Join to see)
more task oriented than soldier skills? what were some of your ?'s came in 2008, before that did JROTC/ and ROTC for a Bit.
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I am currently near the end of my assignment with a NATO signal battalion. Your fears and worries is not just in the army, or even the United States military. Many of the service members I work with only have base knowledge, in their field of expertise, But almost none on the equipment itself. The biggest issue that I've seen in both NATO and regular army is that a good majority of our jobs are contracted out to third party civilian sectors. We have equipment that we have been trained on, but aren't allowed to put into use for training because there isn't a civilian available that day/week/month/year. I think the other issue is that we cannot seem to trade out our lack or technical training with army training. Unfortunately, signal units get the bottom of the barrel when it comes to training. Back in normal Army land, we had a hard time getting slots for things like, FTX, ranges, almost any form of combat training. I get that we are signal but if we can't train on signal, we need to be training army style.
There are a thousand issues in the signal community and really the army as well. We as NCOs are told to enforce standards that the army seems to be softening up on as of late. I see from the lowest ranking PVT to Sr. NCOs (even SGMs) lack the discipline, military bearing, and conforming to standards that is vital to a sustainable force. If soldiers don't have enough discipline to not walk and talk on their cell phones (something really simple like that), then (in my opinion) they will begin to lack in other areas of there job as well. These soldiers are getting promoted to the Sr. ranks (enlisted as well as officer) and they seem to just want to enforce the standards that they wish to follow.
There are a thousand issues in the signal community and really the army as well. We as NCOs are told to enforce standards that the army seems to be softening up on as of late. I see from the lowest ranking PVT to Sr. NCOs (even SGMs) lack the discipline, military bearing, and conforming to standards that is vital to a sustainable force. If soldiers don't have enough discipline to not walk and talk on their cell phones (something really simple like that), then (in my opinion) they will begin to lack in other areas of there job as well. These soldiers are getting promoted to the Sr. ranks (enlisted as well as officer) and they seem to just want to enforce the standards that they wish to follow.
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I'm currently serving as an ESB Company Commander. My prior enlisted time was as a 25F working in EMS, SEN, NC, and LENs during my time. I've run through the ARTEP for just about everything MSE. Like you I was out of the loop when WIN-T came in (branch detailed FA)
We have allowed those skills to atrophy and while I've hypothesized a great deal about how it happened, I have found that I've been more successful refocussing on the training required to close the knowledge gaps that exist.
Sometimes it's better to have problems you can see and work on, rather than not have problems at all.
We have allowed those skills to atrophy and while I've hypothesized a great deal about how it happened, I have found that I've been more successful refocussing on the training required to close the knowledge gaps that exist.
Sometimes it's better to have problems you can see and work on, rather than not have problems at all.
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SGT(P) Douglas Gill
Sir, you make an excellent point. From your perspective as a company commander (especially if its Alpha or Bravo Co) you have a lot of equipment and operators to manage. If the majority of time spent is drudging through the past, your unit may not be successful.
For the record, I am so jealous of your position right now. What I wouldn't give to be in a Signal Battalion in Germany!
For the record, I am so jealous of your position right now. What I wouldn't give to be in a Signal Battalion in Germany!
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You obviously aren't in the right signal unit. I'm a 25N and have been cross trained in 25Q, and 25S. The equipment is similar. You have different breakdowns in equipment and roles and capabilities. We even have current simulators that are up to date from the signal corps school house. Maybe I got lucky with my unit. But don't ever bash the state of units competencies / readiness/ capabilities based on what you have seen. I was a diffrent MOS on active duty we had a joint forces competition that was graded and judged. Signal core should get on board. You are an NCO make a change in the way your unit trains. It all starts with you and attitude.
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SFC Steven Harvey
SPC my "attitude" is exceptional, my opening comment alone should provide all you needed to read prior to commenting.
My concern is not about an exceptional unit by itself, this is much larger than anyone unit.
Your new to signal so I'll assume you either didn't read the part where I covered crew drills or don't know how it used to be done.
It was a competition and everyone took it very seriously.
My concern is not about an exceptional unit by itself, this is much larger than anyone unit.
Your new to signal so I'll assume you either didn't read the part where I covered crew drills or don't know how it used to be done.
It was a competition and everyone took it very seriously.
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SFC (Join to see)
SSG Harvey, I remember those days fondly. C90 best SEN team in Germany!!! "Smooth Operator"
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This problem has been around for a long time. I even saw this back in about 1984 with the deployable TACCS system, since most of the initial training was conducted with the TDA/Stand-Alone version of the TACCS system. How many individuals trained on the system could connect them through the variety of methods that they could be networked through, to include connecting two of them through AN/PRC-77 radios or MSEs when they became available? Very few. In the units that I was in, I was probably the only individual that had done it, and I was self taught and started with OJT as a 36K and by the time that I retired I was fully qualified as a 31V/U, which if I understand correctly is a 25U. Initially I was a line Infantryman, that was trained by an old school SF communicator, and in my later years moved into Operations at Battalion and Brigade level and was the primary computer system SME.
Part of the problem today is that a number of individuals that are now in the Cyber Warfare Branch want to forget the past and though they profess to be the group for defense and offensive operations, they only want to concentrate on offensive actions. Their problem is that before and now they have actually failed at what should be their primary function and that is defense, and in this case defense actually goes back to the basics but they tend to ignore that or say that it is not their job or function. I am a little miffed in this area because here on RallyPoint, I had this discussion with a newly minted 17C that had previously been I believe a 35Q ASI E6 and before that a 25U, and he tried to tell me that I did not know what I was talking about. What is funny about this is that I worked with the TACCS SPBS-R, TACCS SIDPERS, the ULLS S-4 system, and worked with the initial developers of the WIN-T system.
Part of the problem today is that a number of individuals that are now in the Cyber Warfare Branch want to forget the past and though they profess to be the group for defense and offensive operations, they only want to concentrate on offensive actions. Their problem is that before and now they have actually failed at what should be their primary function and that is defense, and in this case defense actually goes back to the basics but they tend to ignore that or say that it is not their job or function. I am a little miffed in this area because here on RallyPoint, I had this discussion with a newly minted 17C that had previously been I believe a 35Q ASI E6 and before that a 25U, and he tried to tell me that I did not know what I was talking about. What is funny about this is that I worked with the TACCS SPBS-R, TACCS SIDPERS, the ULLS S-4 system, and worked with the initial developers of the WIN-T system.
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Is there anyway I can ask my platoon sgt about doing this or should I just keep my mouth shut. All of what you stated would benefit us so much. Site security, crew drills, convoys but we don't do that anymore sadly..
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SFC Steven Harvey
Crew Drills can be done on the team level you just have to ask your NCO if you can do so some team building signal training.
It won't hurt to ask. If he doesn't know how just tell him to look me up on global and I'll send a template for CPN, JNN, SNAP, whatever you guys need.
It won't hurt to ask. If he doesn't know how just tell him to look me up on global and I'll send a template for CPN, JNN, SNAP, whatever you guys need.
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