Posted on Feb 17, 2017
Similar to the E-2 question, how would you react to a young 2LT who is being unprofessional with a strong sense of entitlement?
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Here's the background. You are an experienced Soldier. You walk in to the commissary to see a young 2LT shopping with a headset on. You professionally and politely get the 2LT’s attention and address the deficiency. They blatantly are rude, dismiss your comment, and tell you that those rules do not apply to him as an officer. Whether you are an Officer or Enlisted, how do you react?
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 445
My take is a little different because as a E-3 and below, even if you are correct, you can't win. If you bring attention to the 2LT to a more senior officer or very senior NCO the 2LT will only blame you for his/her shortcoming. Better to more on and hope you are never under his/her command.
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I would remind him that all soldiers are held to a certain standard and that as a leader, it is up to him to set the example.
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It's not going to be the same "whether Officer or Enlisted" - your approach ought to take into account the rank differences. If you are a junior enlisted, find a senior enlisted within the 2LT's chain of command. Let them decide how to handle it. If have another officer that you can trust, let them know, quietly. Regardless of how correct you are, it won't go well if you piss into the wind like that. That 2LT is going to dig their own hole, don't worry, but let someone else apply the corrective action. The mission of the scout is not to engage the enemy, but to find them.
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I had a problem with a brand new butter bar straight out of the academy. I was getting short so my attitude was not the best and he did not like it. Problem is when he took over the platoon he did not review the records of the soldiers under his command and to me that is a grievous error. All may not agree with me on that but in order to command and earn respect you should have a basic idea the troops you are commanding. I was dragging my butt that day and he called me to the side to tell me how wonderful he was, what a great future he had on the outside, and also he was a boxing champ in his class. I just gave him a dumb look. My thoughts were to tell him you have 40 elite paratroopers under you command and there is only one of you if we go into battle you need us more than we need you. We had a highly experienced platoon sergeant and great squad leaders with plenty of experience. I kept my mouth shut and let him spew his rhetoric at me and just turned away and went about the remainder of training for that day. I had 30 days left on my enlistment and this particular butter bar was one reason I decided not to reenlist.
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Ah, 2LTs. So he states as an officer those rules dont apply, I have to presume he has an integrity issue. What other rules dont apply? The fun part comes when you watch his expression change as you take down his name and unit...easily identifiable by unit patch, etc. Or more fun call the MPs bc he is obviously a spy or terrorist. As a 1SG never had an officer speak to me like that without regretting their birth.
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First this would not happen, second if ever a young officer were to ever utter such insanity. I would clearly identify myself as a Senior Enlisted Leader and identify who I work for, and ask for his name and unit. I would then walk away. The next morning when the LT and his commander are invited to visit my boss (3 Stars)... Now I must admit there is the need for situation awareness.
I once had a great mentor who served as an professor at a Military Academy, he was confronted and spoke to with such distain and disrespect over the trivial matter of having his hands in his pockets while walking across a windy snowy parking lot. Earlier he had spied a young cadet doing tours without gloves. He had given his gloves to the Cadet and accepted walking with his hand in his pockets to the car.
In the case of the professor, he took the CSM's correction under advisement and agreed to correct the issue immediately. He then stood there and waited. As the CSM began to leave, he said ahmm, "Sergeant?" "I believe you forgot a few things...." The CSM looked at him with a pretty ugly stare... Came to attention and provided the first Salute he neglected and the Col waited returned his salute and said "dismissed."
Within the book We were Soldiers , The author explains that his CSM is one of the most intense and incredibly powerful leaders he knew. He then went on to tell the story of a Platoon Lt who insisted that all his men fall out in their dress uniforms with all ribbon and medals. All but the Platoon Sgt a crusty bull of a man he did not place his regalia on his uniform. The LT dressed him down and sent him back to correct the issue. He wanted to see what this man was truly made of by the awards and decs he had. A few minutes later the sergeant reappears dressed in only combat boots and not one but two Medals of Honor. He walked up to the LT and stood there waiting for a response. The Men who knew his history, knew he never wore his medals because he hated being saluted, except for that day.
The moral to the story is do not jump to conclusions, treat everyone with respect, recognize you may not have the full picture. Remember we all have a person we report to and if we are in the wrong, admit it, correct the issue at the soonest possible moment and there is always the chance you might be saluting a dude wear only combat boots and a smile!
I once had a great mentor who served as an professor at a Military Academy, he was confronted and spoke to with such distain and disrespect over the trivial matter of having his hands in his pockets while walking across a windy snowy parking lot. Earlier he had spied a young cadet doing tours without gloves. He had given his gloves to the Cadet and accepted walking with his hand in his pockets to the car.
In the case of the professor, he took the CSM's correction under advisement and agreed to correct the issue immediately. He then stood there and waited. As the CSM began to leave, he said ahmm, "Sergeant?" "I believe you forgot a few things...." The CSM looked at him with a pretty ugly stare... Came to attention and provided the first Salute he neglected and the Col waited returned his salute and said "dismissed."
Within the book We were Soldiers , The author explains that his CSM is one of the most intense and incredibly powerful leaders he knew. He then went on to tell the story of a Platoon Lt who insisted that all his men fall out in their dress uniforms with all ribbon and medals. All but the Platoon Sgt a crusty bull of a man he did not place his regalia on his uniform. The LT dressed him down and sent him back to correct the issue. He wanted to see what this man was truly made of by the awards and decs he had. A few minutes later the sergeant reappears dressed in only combat boots and not one but two Medals of Honor. He walked up to the LT and stood there waiting for a response. The Men who knew his history, knew he never wore his medals because he hated being saluted, except for that day.
The moral to the story is do not jump to conclusions, treat everyone with respect, recognize you may not have the full picture. Remember we all have a person we report to and if we are in the wrong, admit it, correct the issue at the soonest possible moment and there is always the chance you might be saluting a dude wear only combat boots and a smile!
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Having been in similar situations, there's three ways to go around this. First thing is to identify yourself and who you are, and then explain the issue. (You could be ANYBODY -and I have often been appalled at comments to me from those who didn't know what they were talking about.-, or had a beef for some reason unbeknownst to me- I looked like their ex, or their wife ran off with an Ensign or something like that. Lol. ) If you explain it most people would at least listen. Second, If you are senior, it's easier. If you aren't maybe get the person's name and unit. I had an Army major come up to me in an PX one time (I'm Navy,(was O-3) and was TAD, and I was in the magazine section, bothering no one) unannounced and tell me to remove my cover! For USN, wearing a cover inside an exchange or commissary is acceptable, and I told him so. He called the Navy liaison office and complained!! (lol) The MCPOC had me stop by, and told me the situation. I told him to tell the major to pound sand-I wasn't doing anything wrong, nor was i bothering anyone. The MCPOC laughed and said "I know, but we have to live with them. " I nodded and said, "Got it." Nothing further. As for entitled young O-1s, usually they learn quickly or don't get to hang around very long.
Thirdly/Lastly, you have to ask yourself; "is it worth it?? Sooner or later, someone will probably make a correction for this young person. Why put yourself in that situation? Just saying.
Thirdly/Lastly, you have to ask yourself; "is it worth it?? Sooner or later, someone will probably make a correction for this young person. Why put yourself in that situation? Just saying.
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CMSgt Frank Dailey
Well, I agreed with you on most things, having been JOINT my entire career, you are a guest on the Army installation and actually you are held to their standards in their sandbox. Just as you would expect me to grab the wall on deck when you would approach and say make way or make a hole.... Your Ship your rules. Is it worth it? I told all my NCOs one thing... those things you choose to overlook are those things you are willing to accept as the new standard. There are things that are big things safety ect. Then there are things that are a matter of pride in your service.
I once witnessed an airman walk past a Marine Major in uniform without rendering courtesies, and as the Marine walked by and shook his head in disgust. I crossed the street stopped the Airman turned his happy rear end around and walked him up to the Major and corrected the matter right then and there. Why Pride! Pride in our services, our Enlisted Corps, and respect that I have for not only or sister services but also our allies and partners. In Korea I ensured all of my troops could introduce themselves in Hangul and also render the proper greeting when saluting our Korean Partners. Having a combined force unit taught us proper etiquette.
I once witnessed an airman walk past a Marine Major in uniform without rendering courtesies, and as the Marine walked by and shook his head in disgust. I crossed the street stopped the Airman turned his happy rear end around and walked him up to the Major and corrected the matter right then and there. Why Pride! Pride in our services, our Enlisted Corps, and respect that I have for not only or sister services but also our allies and partners. In Korea I ensured all of my troops could introduce themselves in Hangul and also render the proper greeting when saluting our Korean Partners. Having a combined force unit taught us proper etiquette.
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CDR William Kempner
CMSgt Frank Dailey - Sorry Chief, but as an old XO of mine used to say, "There's mistakes, and then there's MISTAKES!" And I have been F##ked with/F##ked over by "Military Bullies" and other idiots for over fifty years. It's almost like being a parent-you have to pick your fights. As a former Air Force Captain(1976-1982) I endured lots of disrespect at the hands of junior AF EM, same branch!!-in the interest as I was told by senior officers of "keeping the peace". I switched over to USN in 1982. Very different, but there were still plenty of times when I had to walk away. I appreciate your opinion, but that Army major was being a dick.
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That's too easy... I participated in a Post wide courtesy patrol. Our whole job was to make on the spot corrections, and report to the CG any issues. Basically people like this example. I would simply inform him that none of his superiors including the Full Bird that I worked for would appreciate his blatant disregard for the rules, as they "do" apply to him and every Soldier serving in our military today. If he persisted, I had a direct phone number to the CG... Too easy... You don't want to listen when being corrected, your bosses boss, has a boss... You can answer to him.
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It's been sooooo long since I was in uniform. Once I returned from Vietnam (Dec 1968) I was able to side-step my orders when I was 6 days late reporting to Benning to be a Drill Sergeant. (read that AWOL). Obviously, I wasn't late because I was afraid of physical harm, my problem was that I felt that my personal integrity couldn't handle the thought of training troops for a war that didn't seem to make any sense to my inner self. When it seemed to my dad (ex-Navy pilot WWII) that my leave was being stretched a bit, he asked me "When are you due at your next duty station?" I told him that I should've been there last week. He said "Bob, do you realize that this means you're AWOL?" I told him I'd leave in the morning. The thought of being AWOL was very heavy on my mind and I just didn't know how to handle it. It was top-of-mind for about 8 hours as I drove from Detroit to Georgia. Somewhere during that drive I remembered that a buddy had written me a letter a few months earlier that he was stationed at 3rd Army HQ in Atlanta, so I pulled up to a phone booth in Atlanta, called the Base locator and in a few minutes the familiar voice was on the line. I told him I was on my way to Benning, and that I didn't have the heart to look the young soldiers in their eyes, knowing what I was training them for, and did he know of ANY jobs at Ft. McPherson that I might do. A couple clicks on the line and a gruff voice announced "This is Command Sergeant Major Booton, how can I help you son?" He invited me to his office at 0800 the next morning where I was to arrive in uniform with my records. He blew through the records, every so often stopping and looking at me, until he looked at my current orders when he stopped, looked up at me with the look of a guard dog in anger and he loudly said "Son, do you realize that you're AWOL?" Thank God I had hours to contemplate the answer while driving from Detroit. I looked at SGM Booton and said, "Command Sergeant Major, I think that's a matter of perspective." BOOTON: "A matter of perspective?" (louder now as he stood leaning over his desk at me) "A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE? Would mind telling me how you being AWOL is a MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE?"
Trying to remain cool and calm I told him that somewhere in that folder of records it should also say that I had an additional 30 days of leave coming to me in the next six months before my service ends. I told him that I didn't think it would be such a big deal to correct that number to 23 days, and everything would be square. He then walked to a desk across his office and set my records on it. He turned around and said, "This is your desk, you're working for me now, I'd suggest you get over here and get to work." I just became the Radar O'Riley of the 3rd MP Group, CI.
While there I spoke to MP's all over the 3rd Army. Some MP NCO's (several different bases) were being exposed to green new butter bars who went out of their way to "punish" these NCO's when they had important plans, by putting the NCO on a duty that any other NCO with equal rank and MOS could do, just to show them who's boss. Esprit d 'corps was not very high in the units where this was evident. When I got such calls, I arranged for off the record 3 day passes after speaking to the "buddy NCO" who pledged to fill in for the duty. Because the passes were from HQ, the butter bars were afraid to object... and after just one, they each learned that as big a deal as they imagined themselves to be, there is a tall ladder of BIGGER deals who can rain on their parades. The CSM figured out what I had been doing. He dressed me down and discussed what I had been doing with the LTC, who took me to lunch and told me that the Esprit d 'corps of the command had jumped measurably in the past couple of months. He didn't admit that he knew exactly what I had been up to, but it was time to give me the customary "stay in the Army speech" and offered me more than two years salary if I'd sign-up for 3 more years.
To make a short story long, when you see something that pisses you off, and you believe you might feel better by making a scene at that moment... resist your urge - it'll pass. Don't sweat the small shit. Save your maneuvers for back-door solutions that'll teach lessons to those who need to learn them. It then becomes a quiet mind game, and the satisfaction becomes immeasurably higher... but only YOU know the score.
Trying to remain cool and calm I told him that somewhere in that folder of records it should also say that I had an additional 30 days of leave coming to me in the next six months before my service ends. I told him that I didn't think it would be such a big deal to correct that number to 23 days, and everything would be square. He then walked to a desk across his office and set my records on it. He turned around and said, "This is your desk, you're working for me now, I'd suggest you get over here and get to work." I just became the Radar O'Riley of the 3rd MP Group, CI.
While there I spoke to MP's all over the 3rd Army. Some MP NCO's (several different bases) were being exposed to green new butter bars who went out of their way to "punish" these NCO's when they had important plans, by putting the NCO on a duty that any other NCO with equal rank and MOS could do, just to show them who's boss. Esprit d 'corps was not very high in the units where this was evident. When I got such calls, I arranged for off the record 3 day passes after speaking to the "buddy NCO" who pledged to fill in for the duty. Because the passes were from HQ, the butter bars were afraid to object... and after just one, they each learned that as big a deal as they imagined themselves to be, there is a tall ladder of BIGGER deals who can rain on their parades. The CSM figured out what I had been doing. He dressed me down and discussed what I had been doing with the LTC, who took me to lunch and told me that the Esprit d 'corps of the command had jumped measurably in the past couple of months. He didn't admit that he knew exactly what I had been up to, but it was time to give me the customary "stay in the Army speech" and offered me more than two years salary if I'd sign-up for 3 more years.
To make a short story long, when you see something that pisses you off, and you believe you might feel better by making a scene at that moment... resist your urge - it'll pass. Don't sweat the small shit. Save your maneuvers for back-door solutions that'll teach lessons to those who need to learn them. It then becomes a quiet mind game, and the satisfaction becomes immeasurably higher... but only YOU know the score.
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