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Over the weekend at a training conference an NCO giving a class on standards and discipline asked the group to stand up. He then asked for everyone to sit down whose back pockets were buttoned. I was not one of the NCO's who sat as I always keep my left rear pocket unbuttoned and tucked in as this is where my wallet is at. He then attributed this as a lack of discipline.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
Uniforms
NCOs
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 86
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I'm not FORMER Old School. If I wait long enough, Old School will be new again
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
Hooah 1SG(P) Blount... They do say that everything in the Army is cyclic. What once was will be once again. You just hang in there and you'll be new school for sure!!
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I would say that it has nothing to do with a lack of discipline and more for convience. I keep mine buttoned because my big country wallet will fall out if I don't. It is a good way to teach Soldiers about attention to detail when performing uniform inspections during Monday motorpool formation but sometimes people have a flair for the dramatics and like to make a problem bigger than what it really is.
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CPT Brandon Christensen
I keep mine buttoned as well, but not because I have a big country wallet :)
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1SG Mike Case
If you read my statement, I said I kept mine buttoned so my big ass wallet wouldn’t fall out. I can’t comment as to why a Soldier doesn’t button a back pocket but i see it less as a sign of a discipline problem and more a convience issue. Yes it is a problem, but if I see a Soldier with a button not buttoned, I don’t think they have discipline problems. As for running in a building during retreat, you are suppose to stand and face the music, even inside, so if that was enforced, people wouldn’t run inside and someone doesn’t run inside to avoid retreat for convience, THAT, to me is a lack of discipline.
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This reminds me of the conversation about wearing your PC from your doorstep to your car.
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SFC Douglas Eshenbaugh
Yep, the difference between what the regulation says and what is actually practiced. I don't know how many times I've seen Soldiers walking to and from their bikes with their helmets on. Not authorized but still happens.
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SGT (Join to see)
In my case, no matter the distance, 5 feet or 100 feet, I always wear my PC. Only exception is when outside of my house (On Post). I never wear my cover around my house.
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I've never used my back pocket. Not because my DS told me not to, but sitting on a wallet will make your spine contort to an odd angle that it is not supposed to. Sitting on an even surface is not good for the posture.
Discipline wise, yes, you will button those buttons.
Discipline wise, yes, you will button those buttons.
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With the exception of when I lived in the barracks as a young PFC/SPC and when in attendance at PLDC and BNCOC where I was subjected to a wall locker display SOP, I never in 26 years buttoned the right rear button on my BDUs/DCUs/ACUs. I do not for one second believe that this made me a bad leader or that I ever looked like a bag-o-ass.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
SFC Swartz, thank you for your reply. I also do not think that leaving my back pocket unbuttoned makes me a bad leader. However, what about back in the day getting on to Soldiers who had pistol belts or LBEs that didn't have every brass area properly blackened? Just as menial but still the need to chew some butt and make it right. How then are buttons unbuttoned different?
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My platoon sergeant once said, "You can't EXPECT what you don't INSPECT." When it comes to buttons, I keep mine fastened, and when i become an NCO will expect my soldiers to do the same. Attention to detail. :)
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'For want of a nail, the horseshoe was lost. For want of a horseshoe, the steed was lost. For want of a steed, the message was not delivered. For want of an undelivered message, the war was lost.' no matter how small the defect is. its a defect.
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CPT (Join to see)
True but it may be hard to believe but I have actually fought in combat with my buttons on my pockets open. I would use my pockets to dump my empty mags. I know it is crazy but it can work.
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So there's a couple of different schools of thought with this scenario.
The prevailing one I hear is that by lapsing on the small standards, we're allowing for people to lapse on bigger standards. We heard this a lot when I was deployed, that we as leaders are supposed to sweat the small stuff because if we don't, we're not sweating the big stuff either. It's the perfect example of the slippery slope fallacy. The solution was to slam everyone for the little things in the hope that the big things would simply fall into line.
Now, to address the statement that you're somehow lacking discipline for not buttoning your back pocket. The reg says we have to button our pockets. By choosing not to, you're basically deciding what regs (or parts of the reg) you're going to follow and what you're not. Leadership is going to conclude that if you're picking and choosing in that reg, you're probably picking and choosing in others.
Does it mean the end of the Army or any other service because you didn't button your pocket? I don't think so. Does it mean you're a terrible leader? No. Are you undermining your own ability to lead in a way? Yes.
The prevailing one I hear is that by lapsing on the small standards, we're allowing for people to lapse on bigger standards. We heard this a lot when I was deployed, that we as leaders are supposed to sweat the small stuff because if we don't, we're not sweating the big stuff either. It's the perfect example of the slippery slope fallacy. The solution was to slam everyone for the little things in the hope that the big things would simply fall into line.
Now, to address the statement that you're somehow lacking discipline for not buttoning your back pocket. The reg says we have to button our pockets. By choosing not to, you're basically deciding what regs (or parts of the reg) you're going to follow and what you're not. Leadership is going to conclude that if you're picking and choosing in that reg, you're probably picking and choosing in others.
Does it mean the end of the Army or any other service because you didn't button your pocket? I don't think so. Does it mean you're a terrible leader? No. Are you undermining your own ability to lead in a way? Yes.
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That is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Under that logic then everyone with a button undone lacks integrity. What about Velcro? It doesn't say a thing about that. So I can have my Velcro undone and Im cool?
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MAJ (Join to see)
It looks like the guy with the OD jacket is an interpreter. I hope he is being that there is no visible weapon on his person.
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SFC (Join to see)
CPT (Join to see) btw i have 2 pairs of these boots, issued from RFI. I dare say that had an approved exception to policy for them. (note, not the Nike's)
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SSG (ret) William Martin
Actually those mountain boots, the brown and black ones were authorized to wear in AFG by my commander.
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