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Over the weekend at a training conference an NCO giving a class on standards and discipline asked the group to stand up. He then asked for everyone to sit down whose back pockets were buttoned. I was not one of the NCO's who sat as I always keep my left rear pocket unbuttoned and tucked in as this is where my wallet is at. He then attributed this as a lack of discipline.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
The new AR 670-1 specifically states in Chapter 3 a.(3) that, "Soldiers will keep uniforms buttoned, zipped, and snapped."
Now, obviously this is pretty broad as my ACU's were certainly zipped, and looked professional, but technically were not completely 'buttoned'.
Do you fellow NCO's agree that the failing to button even the rear pockets on the trousers actually demonstrates a lack of discipline? If so, do you then inspect all of your troops to ensure that they are complying with this standard? Are all their buttons in the fly area of the ACU buttoned for example? Are yours? When you wear your ASU's do you button the inside button on the trousers?
I'm not fielding this question to complain about being called out... but instead to see what your thoughts are on the discipline thing.
Uniforms
NCOs
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 86
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I find that we find what rules and regulations to follow because they are near and dear to our heart. When I see a Soldier whose buttons are unbuttoned, I simply tell them to button them. I don't believe they are soup sandwich(nice adjective) or blow it out of proportion. I believe that following the simplest of rules goes a long way. If you follow the small tasks required of you, you definitely will follow the ones that require much more effort. I say this because when I was in TRADOC I recall doing all sorts of BN or what not runs with the new recruits (basic trng) at longer distances than they told us we were allowed however, if my company had planned it, it was against every reg and policy you could think of. Our chow time was right after PT in the mornings however you werent allowed to do pt with recruits within a certain timeframe before and after chow. You couldn't do pt after they ate for a period of time. So, why were we allowed to break those rules and not others? Following rules and regs begins at the top, with us leaders. Minute as WE feel they may be.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
SFC Ortiz, thank you for your comment. I was only trying to add some humor with my soup sandwich adjective in my poll.
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I would ask what the purpose is. Who cares as long as there isnt an unprofessional appearance. My wallet is a long style billfold. I literally cant button my pocket with it in there.
There are some things that just are unnecessary. Uniform must be kept neat, and tidy looking. If you can see the button of my rear pocket (hidden by my properly sized correct length ACU top), stop looking at my rear end so closely, please.
There are some things that just are unnecessary. Uniform must be kept neat, and tidy looking. If you can see the button of my rear pocket (hidden by my properly sized correct length ACU top), stop looking at my rear end so closely, please.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
SSG Tetreault, I'll try not to look at your rear end too closely. However, if you tell a Soldier to do something and the Soldier argues that the task you've set is pointless and unnecessary, what would your response be? By questioning the regulation is that not basically saying the same as a Soldier questioning an order given by a superior?
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CPT (Join to see)
Sfc, I think you may have misread my post, or at least the intended meaning of the first sentence. I apologize for not being more clear. By saying I would ask what the purpose is, I meant internally. I would ask whoever posed the question; is it necessary? When determining what should or shouldn't be, purpose is always at the root of the decision.
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SFC Stephen Carden
I can't believe there isn't guidance in AR 670-1 regarding the style fo wallets authorized for use with the ACU uniform!
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I keep all my buttons buttoned except those that I keep unbuttoned....namely the R back pocket for the wallet and the R breast pocket where I keep my CAC card. Flaps always outside the pocket, so unless you come over and lift it, you will not know it is unbuttoned....
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In the 8.5 years I served, I never buttoned my wallet pocket but my uniform was clean and in good condition. With everything else wrong with the military, the debate over buttons should be one of the last things to talk about in regards to professionalism.
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MSG(P) (Join to see)
SGT Keen, many have argued that there is a slippery slope fallacy where the small things lead to a lack of caring in the big things. So, if we enforce discipline and standards on the small issues it will lead to more discipline on the larger issues. Thoughts?
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SGT Ben Keen
Oh I agree with that but I would hope that my actions would also show that while yes, I never buttoned by wallet pocket, I led from the front, never asking my Soldiers to do something that I wouldn't or never did, placed their needs and the mission first and was successful. I think those things matter more about a leader than if he/she buttoned all her pockets. Great rebuttal SFC Downin!
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A Different Kind of Truth 2012 Eddie Van Halen Alex Van Halen Wolfgang Van Halen David Lee Roth
Back pocket buttons are the brown M&Ms of the Army. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwHO2HnwfnA
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SFC Downin,
Every button, zipper, and piece of velcro is always properly affixed on my uniform... Except for my right rear pocket where my wallet goes. That pocket gets buttoned when I am in the motor pool or the field. I do this for ease of access. Am I right? No. Will the US military fail because I don't button my right rear pocket? No. Can anyone even tell? Not unless they start staring at my butt... Hey, are you looking at my butt?
Every button, zipper, and piece of velcro is always properly affixed on my uniform... Except for my right rear pocket where my wallet goes. That pocket gets buttoned when I am in the motor pool or the field. I do this for ease of access. Am I right? No. Will the US military fail because I don't button my right rear pocket? No. Can anyone even tell? Not unless they start staring at my butt... Hey, are you looking at my butt?
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Why is the button even there? To hold stuff in. However this clearly falls under suggesting whomever is using this as an excuse to get their eye-candy on by staring at my ass....that surely they can find something better to do.
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The important thing is to remember the goal of the regulation. If your uniform looks unprofessional, then do what is expected to make it look correct. With that said, I wouldn't expend energy worrying about a pocket that is unbuttoned but not visible. If it's not affecting the appearance of the uniform, move on and deal with the other critical priorities.
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I guess I’m SGT Old School...
I come from the generation of thinking NCOs should lead by example. Part of that is doing the right thing even if nobody is watching. Personal accountability should be first. I cannot expect my soldiers to pay attention to detail if I do not do so myself.
I come from the generation of thinking NCOs should lead by example. Part of that is doing the right thing even if nobody is watching. Personal accountability should be first. I cannot expect my soldiers to pay attention to detail if I do not do so myself.
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