28
28
0
So,
I got the update from my UA, and a copy of my Approval Memorandum. Thank you to those who were supportive! Why would RallyPoint require a question mark to end posts?
I got the update from my UA, and a copy of my Approval Memorandum. Thank you to those who were supportive! Why would RallyPoint require a question mark to end posts?
Grooming Standards
Religion
DA Pam 670-1
Regulation
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 26
1
1
0
I too was a Caucasian, Christian soldier. I did not take a Nazarite vow so my opinion should be weighed based somewhat on that. Unlike today's soldier, I did not volunteer. I was drafted. Despite that, I felt an obligation to follow all the rules and regulations that existed and never asked for an exception to any of them. Today's soldiers are all volunteers and as such agree by signing up that they will follow the regulations as prescribed. I do not doubt your sincerity but would remind you that, in my opinion, the hair itself is about not so much about looking different but about setting yourself up against the culture by doing things good in the sight of God that set you apart from society. You can do that with or without the long hair. God's speed
(1)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
that's an interesting perspective. But I am also blessed to serve in a time when in this generation, the Army has instituted the policies which would enable me to observe my faith. So if I have a good track record of service, and the only thing that would be different is the length of my hair and beard, is it really that bad for me to observe my faith?
(1)
(0)
1
1
0
If you can show an order that says I had to (with no grey area) then I would approve it.
I only laid off on a grooming request once for a Marine reservist that was an undercover narcotics agent who needed to keep his beard.
I only laid off on a grooming request once for a Marine reservist that was an undercover narcotics agent who needed to keep his beard.
(1)
(0)
CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
B Maj J B In 1970, in ‘my’ NG Infantry company, a LEO troop said he needed an exemption from drill, hair and beard as he was going undercover for a tour in narcotics.
The commander was also an LEO; so no problem.
“Joe” appeared at the Armory once during that period. “We” not only did not recognize him, “we” could not understand anything of the street jargon he was speaking!
He was totally immersed in the drug culture he was investigating.
After 6 months, he suddenly reappeared at drill, clean shaven and with an acceptable haircut.
His story was that the “investigation” had concluded in the arrest of 130 (?) violators and that he was back in on patrol duty wearing a blue uniform!
The commander was also an LEO; so no problem.
“Joe” appeared at the Armory once during that period. “We” not only did not recognize him, “we” could not understand anything of the street jargon he was speaking!
He was totally immersed in the drug culture he was investigating.
After 6 months, he suddenly reappeared at drill, clean shaven and with an acceptable haircut.
His story was that the “investigation” had concluded in the arrest of 130 (?) violators and that he was back in on patrol duty wearing a blue uniform!
(2)
(0)
0
0
0
The Nazirite Vow is taken by Jews, not Christians (the "Messianic Covenant" removed the
requirement for sacrifices and periods of penance). Under the Nazarite Vow, the Neizir (nazir) (person taking the vow) does the following:
1. Swears to remove themselves from world pleasures and the worldly pursuits of society.
2. Abstain from alcohol, fermented drinks, juices, grapes (to include seeds and the skin of grapes)
3. Abstain from cutting any hair from the neck up. Cutting of ANY hair above the neck ends the vow
4. May not come into contact with the dead. Regardless of the relation to the dead, coming in contact with the dead ends the vow.
For the Nazirite vow to be confirmed, the following MUST be observed by the same law:
1. The vow must be taken at a temple in Israel, or in the presence of a Rabbi.
2. If the vow is taken in the diaspora, the Neizir must relocate to Israel to confirm the vow and enter into solitude.
3. At the conclusion of the vow, the Neizir must make a burnt offering and sin offering at the temple altar. This is typically two turtle doves and the shave head of the Neizer.
Considerations:
1. Because of the changes to rabbinical law, the Nazirite Vow is permanent once sworn. Since there are no more temples in the world where sacrifices can be made, the Nazirite Vow cannot be ended.
2. The Nezeir lifestyle is incredibly meticulous, and requires an immense amount of focus and preparation. It is not something one decides to "just do", because it is a PERMANENT vow.
3. Under the Law, it is considered sinful to swear the Nazirite Law and be under any other Oath or Obligation.
4. The only congregations that I've been able to find that actively practice this vow (by adhering to the whole of it) are the Ultra Orthodox and Orthodox Jews (You wouldn't be in this military if you were one of these. The Christian groups that claim to participate in this practice are members of fringe religious groups that are borderline extremist groups. The Branch Davidians participated in this practice, including David Koresh himself, for example.
I've spent a considerable amount of time among the Jewish people, and in Israel. Those who wish to swear the Nazirite Vow take months if not years deciding whether or not this is the path they wish to take. It is a lifetime commitment of study, prayer, worship, service, and sacrifice. They are literally stating "This world has nothing to offer me, I want to devote my life to HaShem, my G-d."
Admittedly, I'm disgusted by your exception to policy being granted, your continued arrogance, and your thinking this somehow makes you more spiritual. It doesn't. In fact, because of the reasons stated above, your vow is not binding under Biblical Law.
You took something VERY SACRED to the Jewish people, and you shat all over it and the Jewish people to achieve your own ends.
Congratulations Individual.
requirement for sacrifices and periods of penance). Under the Nazarite Vow, the Neizir (nazir) (person taking the vow) does the following:
1. Swears to remove themselves from world pleasures and the worldly pursuits of society.
2. Abstain from alcohol, fermented drinks, juices, grapes (to include seeds and the skin of grapes)
3. Abstain from cutting any hair from the neck up. Cutting of ANY hair above the neck ends the vow
4. May not come into contact with the dead. Regardless of the relation to the dead, coming in contact with the dead ends the vow.
For the Nazirite vow to be confirmed, the following MUST be observed by the same law:
1. The vow must be taken at a temple in Israel, or in the presence of a Rabbi.
2. If the vow is taken in the diaspora, the Neizir must relocate to Israel to confirm the vow and enter into solitude.
3. At the conclusion of the vow, the Neizir must make a burnt offering and sin offering at the temple altar. This is typically two turtle doves and the shave head of the Neizer.
Considerations:
1. Because of the changes to rabbinical law, the Nazirite Vow is permanent once sworn. Since there are no more temples in the world where sacrifices can be made, the Nazirite Vow cannot be ended.
2. The Nezeir lifestyle is incredibly meticulous, and requires an immense amount of focus and preparation. It is not something one decides to "just do", because it is a PERMANENT vow.
3. Under the Law, it is considered sinful to swear the Nazirite Law and be under any other Oath or Obligation.
4. The only congregations that I've been able to find that actively practice this vow (by adhering to the whole of it) are the Ultra Orthodox and Orthodox Jews (You wouldn't be in this military if you were one of these. The Christian groups that claim to participate in this practice are members of fringe religious groups that are borderline extremist groups. The Branch Davidians participated in this practice, including David Koresh himself, for example.
I've spent a considerable amount of time among the Jewish people, and in Israel. Those who wish to swear the Nazirite Vow take months if not years deciding whether or not this is the path they wish to take. It is a lifetime commitment of study, prayer, worship, service, and sacrifice. They are literally stating "This world has nothing to offer me, I want to devote my life to HaShem, my G-d."
Admittedly, I'm disgusted by your exception to policy being granted, your continued arrogance, and your thinking this somehow makes you more spiritual. It doesn't. In fact, because of the reasons stated above, your vow is not binding under Biblical Law.
You took something VERY SACRED to the Jewish people, and you shat all over it and the Jewish people to achieve your own ends.
Congratulations Individual.
(0)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
Well, hey. All of that is just your opinion man. It may be historically important to Jews, but it is still important to Christians, as it is still part of our holy book. If old testament didn't matter, it wouldn't be apart of the Bible. Second, I went through some pretty heavy stuff, and this is what I felt called too. FURTHER, my request being approved was inevitable because it was deemed valid and just after an arduous approval process. Just because you've got some issue with religious freedom doesn't mean you should throw hate at others. Pretty unbecoming of a non-commissioned officer.
Also, its pretty fucking bold of you to tell me that something I felt called to do by my Faith, mine and not yours, doesn't make me more spiritual. How do you know whats going on in my head?
Also, its pretty fucking bold of you to tell me that something I felt called to do by my Faith, mine and not yours, doesn't make me more spiritual. How do you know whats going on in my head?
(0)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) -
Well, hey. All of that is just your opinion man. It may be historically important to Jews, but it is still important to Christians, as it is still part of our holy book. If old testament didn't matter, it wouldn't be apart of the Bible.
Response: Actually, most of that was taken from several theological references that accurately depicts what the Nazirite Vow is, who practices it exclusively (well, almost exclusively; there's you, of course), and when they practice it. It's not an opinion if religious scholars from the Judaic and Christian communities both write on the subject in their official capacity. As far as "if the old testament didn't matter, it wouldn't be part of the bible", we can both agree on that. As you are a Christian, you no doubt accept the New Covenant, otherwise you couldn't call yourself a Christian, which is something I think we can both agree on. The Nazirite Vow was part of the Old Covenant, which Christ was meant to replace with his sacrifice on the Cross, particularly those nasty laws that required you to stone people and sacrifice animals to atone for sin.
Second, I went through some pretty heavy stuff, and this is what I felt called too.
Response: We've all been through stuff, Troop, and I am in no way going to say you haven't. However, there are SEVERAL programs the Army offers, such as Resiliency, Counseling, Mentorship, and of course the Chaplaincy that can and will help you through the trials you are going through. You didn't NEED to observe an exclusively Jewish ritual in order to get help. I'm sure you desired to participate in the ritual once you read about it, but it wasn't a life or death necessity.
FURTHER, my request being approved was inevitable because it was deemed valid and just after an arduous approval process.
Response: I'm truly curious as to what this arduous approval process looks like.
Just because you've got some issue with religious freedom doesn't mean you should throw hate at others. Pretty unbecoming of a non-commissioned officer.
Response: Number one: I have no issue with religious freedom, unless it become abused. The fact that you made that assumption just made your argument weaker. Also, if I wanted to throw hate, it'd be a whole lot worse than what little I just gave you. I am human, and very much capable of throwing hate, I'm choosing not to. Change your perception Specialist, I'm having a discussion with you based on what I know versus what you feel. This can either be a rewarding experience for the both of us, or I can just accept that you're incapable of having this kind of discussion and move on.
Also, its pretty fucking bold of you to tell me that something I felt called to do by my Faith, mine and not yours, doesn't make me more spiritual. How do you know whats going on in my head?
Response: Appealing to emotion is a horrible logical fallacy, and doesn't award you any bonus points. Neither do straw man arguments or appeals from authority. I don't know what's going on inside your head, but I am a qualified therapist, would you like to talk about it? I can set aside some time for you if you like.
Well, hey. All of that is just your opinion man. It may be historically important to Jews, but it is still important to Christians, as it is still part of our holy book. If old testament didn't matter, it wouldn't be apart of the Bible.
Response: Actually, most of that was taken from several theological references that accurately depicts what the Nazirite Vow is, who practices it exclusively (well, almost exclusively; there's you, of course), and when they practice it. It's not an opinion if religious scholars from the Judaic and Christian communities both write on the subject in their official capacity. As far as "if the old testament didn't matter, it wouldn't be part of the bible", we can both agree on that. As you are a Christian, you no doubt accept the New Covenant, otherwise you couldn't call yourself a Christian, which is something I think we can both agree on. The Nazirite Vow was part of the Old Covenant, which Christ was meant to replace with his sacrifice on the Cross, particularly those nasty laws that required you to stone people and sacrifice animals to atone for sin.
Second, I went through some pretty heavy stuff, and this is what I felt called too.
Response: We've all been through stuff, Troop, and I am in no way going to say you haven't. However, there are SEVERAL programs the Army offers, such as Resiliency, Counseling, Mentorship, and of course the Chaplaincy that can and will help you through the trials you are going through. You didn't NEED to observe an exclusively Jewish ritual in order to get help. I'm sure you desired to participate in the ritual once you read about it, but it wasn't a life or death necessity.
FURTHER, my request being approved was inevitable because it was deemed valid and just after an arduous approval process.
Response: I'm truly curious as to what this arduous approval process looks like.
Just because you've got some issue with religious freedom doesn't mean you should throw hate at others. Pretty unbecoming of a non-commissioned officer.
Response: Number one: I have no issue with religious freedom, unless it become abused. The fact that you made that assumption just made your argument weaker. Also, if I wanted to throw hate, it'd be a whole lot worse than what little I just gave you. I am human, and very much capable of throwing hate, I'm choosing not to. Change your perception Specialist, I'm having a discussion with you based on what I know versus what you feel. This can either be a rewarding experience for the both of us, or I can just accept that you're incapable of having this kind of discussion and move on.
Also, its pretty fucking bold of you to tell me that something I felt called to do by my Faith, mine and not yours, doesn't make me more spiritual. How do you know whats going on in my head?
Response: Appealing to emotion is a horrible logical fallacy, and doesn't award you any bonus points. Neither do straw man arguments or appeals from authority. I don't know what's going on inside your head, but I am a qualified therapist, would you like to talk about it? I can set aside some time for you if you like.
(0)
(0)
0
0
0
Were you aware of the grooming standards prior to joining? Do you realize that you made a commitment before God to uphold the standards of your service? Why do you think the military should concede grooming standards to accommodate someone who is unwilling to uphold standards, including weekly haircuts and daily shaving? Uniform is not just the clothing we wear. It means we are one with another.
I am a very proud Christian. If for any reason my beliefs forced me to not be able to uphold standards I would have simply fulfilled my current contract and left.
With all due respect, why should you or anyone be granted accommodations while everyone else has to oblige?
I am a very proud Christian. If for any reason my beliefs forced me to not be able to uphold standards I would have simply fulfilled my current contract and left.
With all due respect, why should you or anyone be granted accommodations while everyone else has to oblige?
(0)
(0)
SGT (Join to see)
Because the Army has instituted the policy after I joined and I am in full compliance with it. Had it been enacted back when I first joined, I would've utilized it then. The fact is, it didnt exist then, so I couldn't. Now it does exist, I have a valid reason too.
With all due respect if I am complying with my branches standards, why should I be harassed? Or treated with disrespect or disdain?
And weekly haircuts aren't the standard in the Army. As long as you are in compliance with AR670-1, you are good. Like you do realize that we aren't debating whether or not to create a policy to allow what I am seeking right? It already exists, the change has been made, straight from SecDef.
With all due respect if I am complying with my branches standards, why should I be harassed? Or treated with disrespect or disdain?
And weekly haircuts aren't the standard in the Army. As long as you are in compliance with AR670-1, you are good. Like you do realize that we aren't debating whether or not to create a policy to allow what I am seeking right? It already exists, the change has been made, straight from SecDef.
(0)
(0)
GySgt Kenneth Pepper
SGT (Join to see) - You must forgive me, I am older a too set in my ways. I wish you the best. I truly hope He will enlighten and guide you on your journey. Peace.
(1)
(0)
0
0
0
0
-2
2
The Army needs conformance and they do NOT need a load of silly nonsense to deal with. Just man up and do what is required of you. A beard does not seal with a gas mask and long hair looks like crap under a cover and in ranks with conforming others. Or, join the Marines, your answer is NO and that is it.
(0)
(2)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google