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I am in the Army Reserve and this past weekend my unit and I went to the range. While at the range, I was told that one of my AGR E5 NCOs was being very disrespectful and unprofessional towards other NCOs and Officers while he was a range safety. Afterwards, my SFC supply sergeant asked him if he cleaned his weapon and he stated that he was not going to clean his MFing weapon. The SFC brought this to my attention and I said I would handle it. Later on, when I saw him again, I has him put away some items he was carrying and instructed him to bring his weapon while we walked to a secluded area. I had my LT platoon leader come with me. While I was doing this and trying to talk to him, he continuously interrupted me and was not treating me like his senior. I put him at the position of attention then told him to get in the front leaning rest position and he said he wasn't going to effing do that. I said great, let's go see the CSM. The CSM sided with him and said I escalated things too quickly (he said this with my E5 right there). He then said that he hold his AGR Soldiers at a higher standard than just a regular reservist. My brain was boiling... Doesn't take any consideration to my prior active time, my deployment, my rank, my leadership history.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
I understand I might have escalated quickly but don't demean me in front my my Soldiers. I was going to have him in the front leaning rest while I calmly talk to him. I just wanted him to be uncomfortable while I explain what professionalism is and what the NCO Creed stands for and that I won't tolerate one of my NCOs disrespecting other NCOs or Officers.
Was I wrong in what I was doing? Am I too old school for today's Army? How could I have handled things differently? Now he probably thinks he is untouchable...
Update: So that individual got promoted and is awaiting transfer. He and I talked about what happened and he apologized for how he reacted. I just left it at that. I understand where I went wrong and if something like that happens again, I will be more prepared with having paperwork ready to escalate.
To give a little more insight on my unit, we are essentially the command part of a larger unit which we oversee. Similar to an HQ or HHC. It's hospital unit and we're the hospital center. Those of you who've been in a hospital unit, you probably understand the unique dynamic. With that being said, my position is basically the 1SG but with a squad sized element. My next higher up is the CSM, which is why I went to him instead of a 1SG.
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Edited 2 y ago
Posted 3 y ago
Responses: 168
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No, you weren't. CSM was wrong in not speaking to you before meeting with the individual. Not much of a soldier either one of them.
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Wrong in the end by the Sgt.
Q: why woul you a SSG tell and SFC that you would handle something, likely that you are not an AGR NCOs supervisor. Taking a LT to correct an NCO as opposed to his supervisor makes no sense. Dropping him before you even addressed the issue calmly as you stated. The chances of him hearing what you have to say from the front leaning rest is not likely
You are correct I that he should have follows your order, if the LT was there why did he not quell the situation.
Bottom line as you step yourself he had been unruly the entire day, I assume several officers and NCOs saw and or heard him. So, we’re you correct i. How you handled it, not really, we’re you wrong, no completely.
Finally, how did this skip his supervisor, the 1SG, the CO and get to the CSM.
As for the CSM, for me not truly grasping what is all missing here, he was wrong in his address to you, the message that sends to the unit and how he himself sees things.
Learn from your error, know the leaders above you and take an approach that will glean the desired result.
Dont stopping making corrections, just realize there are many ways to reach a desired result, each path may be different to get to the same place.
Q: why woul you a SSG tell and SFC that you would handle something, likely that you are not an AGR NCOs supervisor. Taking a LT to correct an NCO as opposed to his supervisor makes no sense. Dropping him before you even addressed the issue calmly as you stated. The chances of him hearing what you have to say from the front leaning rest is not likely
You are correct I that he should have follows your order, if the LT was there why did he not quell the situation.
Bottom line as you step yourself he had been unruly the entire day, I assume several officers and NCOs saw and or heard him. So, we’re you correct i. How you handled it, not really, we’re you wrong, no completely.
Finally, how did this skip his supervisor, the 1SG, the CO and get to the CSM.
As for the CSM, for me not truly grasping what is all missing here, he was wrong in his address to you, the message that sends to the unit and how he himself sees things.
Learn from your error, know the leaders above you and take an approach that will glean the desired result.
Dont stopping making corrections, just realize there are many ways to reach a desired result, each path may be different to get to the same place.
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Reading this makes my blood boil. Start a paper trail, counsel him on everything he said and did. When he refuses to sign, escalate it. There is no place for people like that in the Army, especially on AGR. Good thing he doesn’t work in my BN. I’d be on the phone with his Assignments NCO at HRC. He needs to be kicked off the AGR program.
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SSG (Join to see)
My issue with that is I am on TPU status. I can write him a counseling but following through with it is difficult. I'm certain I will have other opportunities on a drill weekend, but I don't plan on staying with this unit much longer. I am ready to move on for career progression. Thank you for your comment, sir. It's really validating and I needed that.
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MAJ (Join to see)
SSG (Join to see) I understand that, and I’m glad my comment helped. You need buy in from the other AGRs and the chain of command. The commander has a lot of power, more than they realize sometimes. If need be, get the BN involved, if nothing is happening at the company level.
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SP5 Timothy Cooper
Sir I don't think Counseling would help this SGT it is called good old boys . they work in the same place how haver you look it that it head's are being turned the other way.
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I had an insubordinate subordinate, try to go around me once. He took his issue to my superior who then reamed me for what the E5 said. Didn't hear a word I said. The E-5 then proceeded to act like he got one on me. Even threatened to go over my head a couple of times.
I gave him a counseling statement for not taking the proper steps for conflict resolution and following his NCO chain. I put it on his performance evaluation, then on his NCOER.
My supervisor, upon seeing the NCOER, or maybe one of his higher buddies, tried to get me to change the evaluation. I refered back to the event. His (the E-5) childish response to what happened. I was asked why I didn't say something before, I refered him to the counseling statement, and the quarterly eval. He finally listened to my side of the event, then let it stand. Inever heard anything else on the issue from them. The E-5 stopped his cocky attitude, when he realised he couldn't do anything about it.
Note: I rarely, if ever, gave negative marks, with the exception of PT scores. For me to stand my ground on this provided moreweight in my stance than anything else.
I gave him a counseling statement for not taking the proper steps for conflict resolution and following his NCO chain. I put it on his performance evaluation, then on his NCOER.
My supervisor, upon seeing the NCOER, or maybe one of his higher buddies, tried to get me to change the evaluation. I refered back to the event. His (the E-5) childish response to what happened. I was asked why I didn't say something before, I refered him to the counseling statement, and the quarterly eval. He finally listened to my side of the event, then let it stand. Inever heard anything else on the issue from them. The E-5 stopped his cocky attitude, when he realised he couldn't do anything about it.
Note: I rarely, if ever, gave negative marks, with the exception of PT scores. For me to stand my ground on this provided moreweight in my stance than anything else.
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SP5 Timothy Cooper
Good for you there are reason for lower an highter ranks an the chain of command to me the new Army does not know wait it is.
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I understand your frustration. Some soldiers try to get away with somethings. Usually it's best to nip those things
In.the bud.Much like you attempted to.do.
In.the bud.Much like you attempted to.do.
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SSG Jason Cramer You were right and that AGR E5 NCO was wrong. The range is no place for stupidity.
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Welcome to a kinder and gentler Army. In my opinion [and you know what that is worth] you were correct in your actions. My only advise, counsel you subordinances on your terms [in an office, training room, or any area you control].
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Bethina Lee
I dated a drill sgt that was absolutely pissed off because of the newer, kinder, rules..
Nothing like the Army I remember from following my father around....no push-ups, no duty, no running extra laps, can't lock them down on the weekends, no screaming/yelling (wtf has the army gone soft?), no type of embarrassment at all...really? I remember the army being as tough as the marines once upon a time. Might well just add Snowflake's in front of the army emblem now. No discipline, no punishment, allowing disrespect & insubordination, I mean wtf you do for punishment? Put them in "Time Out" for 30mins..
Any institution should have "Repercussions for your Actions"
Or my dad would say
"You do stupid things, you win stupid prizes"
Not only is this disrespect for all NCO's, but allowing the CSM to enable the disrespect sets the example for the rest of the rank & file; as well as The Army itself...
Nothing like the Army I remember from following my father around....no push-ups, no duty, no running extra laps, can't lock them down on the weekends, no screaming/yelling (wtf has the army gone soft?), no type of embarrassment at all...really? I remember the army being as tough as the marines once upon a time. Might well just add Snowflake's in front of the army emblem now. No discipline, no punishment, allowing disrespect & insubordination, I mean wtf you do for punishment? Put them in "Time Out" for 30mins..
Any institution should have "Repercussions for your Actions"
Or my dad would say
"You do stupid things, you win stupid prizes"
Not only is this disrespect for all NCO's, but allowing the CSM to enable the disrespect sets the example for the rest of the rank & file; as well as The Army itself...
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As others have stated, pen to paper for an NCO, they should know better. So should a Specialist in my opinion but there is no excuse for an NCO to act that unprofessional under any circumstances. They are held to a higher standard than lower enlisted for a reason. Reserve, National Guard, Active Guard and Reserve or Active Duty shouldn't matter. An NCO is an NCO. My father was a very highly regarded AGR Chief Warrant who held himself to a very high level of professionalism and expected the same of all of his subordinates no matter what component they came from.
I think, there were only two courses of action you could have effectively taken. First take that NCO up the chain of command with counseling papers in hand but I personally believe going to the command for an Article-15 would have been what this NCO needed. Or perhaps I would have given him a research project on the professionalism of the non-commissioned officer and the importance of it to the maintenance of discipline within the U.S. Army. Failure to satisfactorily complete the corrective action assignment and then a trip to the commander with the request of an Article-15. No one likes losing money or time. Of course you could go to battalion level and take his NCO status away from him since he doesn't want to act like one. The behavior you described would have been grounds for summary execution of that NCO when I was active duty. Maybe times were different and things have changed.
Oh, by the way, it's "front leaning rest position". Not trying to call you out or embarrass you but you seem like someone who wants to be professional. Lower enlisted will question your intelligence and lose respect for you if you say this. I understand that it often sounds like "front lean and rest" depending on who's saying it. Just trying to help you out.
I think, there were only two courses of action you could have effectively taken. First take that NCO up the chain of command with counseling papers in hand but I personally believe going to the command for an Article-15 would have been what this NCO needed. Or perhaps I would have given him a research project on the professionalism of the non-commissioned officer and the importance of it to the maintenance of discipline within the U.S. Army. Failure to satisfactorily complete the corrective action assignment and then a trip to the commander with the request of an Article-15. No one likes losing money or time. Of course you could go to battalion level and take his NCO status away from him since he doesn't want to act like one. The behavior you described would have been grounds for summary execution of that NCO when I was active duty. Maybe times were different and things have changed.
Oh, by the way, it's "front leaning rest position". Not trying to call you out or embarrass you but you seem like someone who wants to be professional. Lower enlisted will question your intelligence and lose respect for you if you say this. I understand that it often sounds like "front lean and rest" depending on who's saying it. Just trying to help you out.
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While I might not have put him in the front leaning rest he surely would have been at parade rest as he got a talking to. The CSM should have backed you up.
If he is allowing the AGR to get away with such behavior he isn't holding them to any standard, at all.
If he is allowing the AGR to get away with such behavior he isn't holding them to any standard, at all.
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