Was I wrong in this situation?

I don't think you were wrong. It is his responsibility to handle his own professionalism and weapon correctly and with appropriate tack and respect. You probably are too old school for today's Army as we all are. They have defeated all the values and integrity.

In my opinion, the SGT absolutely 100% wrong.

Nope you were not it’s sad to see that you were not backed up in this situation

This guy has friends, and is probably on the fast track to E-9. The reserves are full of people, who didn’t earn, or deserve their rank. It’s like a fraternity, this guy is gonna outrank you, most likely. I’d just try to let it go, and let the LT punish people. You don’t want them as enemies

Insubordination at the very least. I'm amazed at the way the Military has changed since I Served.

In my opinion no Soldier should ever be put in the front leaning rest position outside of a school environment. Especially an NCO no matter what the infraction is. Also, A blatant case of insubordination is something punished by a "Letter of Counseling" or Article 15. You will never accomplish anything by humiliating a Soldier regardless of their offense or rank. Wanting to put someone in that position is just a show of power and it is not taken very well by professionals!

Well, back when I was in your position, that trip out in to the woods would have involved some different "therapies", I think. Today, "Old School" isn't what it was when I was in. I still have a few knots in my noggin from some "remedial training myself. However, today that approach won't work.

The problem is that with today's "kinder, gentler" force, you have to figure out what CAUSED this behavior. Was this NCO normally belligerent? Or was he usually a normal, decent NCO? I had many times when my "Children" acted out because of a fight with a spouse or significant other or they had a financial bombshell, sick kid, you name it. It sounds like this guy was pissed off, not at you, not even at the folks on the range.

I think your superiors did you a disservice as well, however. CSM should have had your back. Recommendations to involve the top? Sure, if he was available. But this also needed to be corrected on the spot. You did the right thing, but as was stated below, there may have been a better way to handle it. However, that being said, you were the "Johnny on the spot" and did what you thought was right. I'm with CSM Biggs and I'm sure his first instinct would have been to apply some seriously old school attitude adjustment. However, like I said, in today's world you're expected to throw paper instead.

The time I remember most is during basic at Ft Knox. I was a military academy 4 year high school graduate. It was July, 100 degrees, 97% humidity., I named Kentucky the Stagnant State. I had driven from Nebraska to Ft Knox for Basic. One morning I went out to my car just to check on it, it was gone. The cops had towed it due to no base sticker and an expired temp permit. I was furious (it was a 69 GTO Ram Air IV).

I was sick of crawling thru sawdust that of course managed to get inside everything. Sick of the flies, sick of basic training, and very pissed off at life in general And it was obstacle course day. I got snagged in the wire. Cut, pissed off. Our DI, one SSgt Ballog, crawled under the wire, dragged me out by my feet and proceeded to ream me a new one. I got belligerent. He and the assistant DI took me out into the woods and gave me an attitude adjustment with EXTREME prejudice. Not a mark on me that you could see. That one incident taught me more about how to control my temper than any amount of paper would have. Having 4 years of ROTC behind me I was pretty indignant to begin with about having to go thru basic in the first place...I could field strip almost any rifle from an M1 Garand or a .303 Enfield up to an M14 or 16 blindfolded and I could out shoot anyone I came across on the range, including the instructors. Full of it, I was.

Being taken down a peg is what I needed. Now the amazing part? SSgt Ballog let me vent first..I didn't yell, but i certainly vented. I was so mad I didn't care. THEN my "re-education" started. Oddly enough, he got my car back from the impound lot too. I did get a bit of revenge on him during a senatorial firepower demonstration and a porta potti that somehow got chained shut and bounced down a hill while the tanks were firing...But that's another story.

Bottom line is that what worked for the REALLY old school guys can't be done today. But sometimes, you WILL WISH with all your heart it was still legal.

I earned every bit of what I got. Today, however, you wind up having to figure out WHY this NCO copped an attitude. I'm honestly surprised the CSM didn't pick up on this. He SHOULD have the experience in dealing with "Kids acting out". That's what it sounds like to me, more than anything else. You didn't mention if you knew this NCO very well or if he was a complete stranger either.

My only recommendation is that if you get stuck in this situation again, have someone senior come over and witness the conduct first. If you need an officer and have the time, have your SENIOR go fetch him. There are limits to your temper as well..having someone there with you will help. This is one of the reasons why I'm glad I retired in 2007. I got sick of throwing paper at someone who could care less about it. Some folks only know force. Others know how to play the game extremely well.

I don't normally post here anymore. You'll find my last post was a LONG time ago. But I thought this one time I'd chime in, because it IS a huge problem and it is something that needs to be addressed from the top down. Someday that NCO might be right next to you in the field, for real. That weapon jams or misfeeds due to his lack of care, and it might cost you BOTH the ultimate price. Sure, today you were on a range and he was in a foul mood. Tomorrow, however, you might be in a far different place. That is what professionalism is all about.

From what I saw over a 26 year career in two services is that paper only fixes problems for the people who were raised right and CARE about it. Naked force is the only cure that seems to work. Many of those kids grew up in tough neighborhoods where only strength and power are respected. I remember getting an education from a police officer as well. No ticket, no fine, lots of very sore ribs. A very professional job, believe me. I was the YOUNGEST kid ever to get arrested by the FBI that I've ever heard of..8 years old. That cop worked me over when I was 16, for drag racing that SAME GTO.
I was, I think, a typical kid of a broken household of my generation. I really do think that being "taken out behind the woodshed" saved more careers than any amount of paperwork ever did. I even risked my career a few times and saved a few kids who were arrowing straight over the base gate. The funny thing is, it was never reported and every one of them thanked me for it and several outranked me by the time I retired (I did not WANT to be an E7, and I was quite happy doing what I did best in either service).

One of the bad things today, is that UP or OUT policy. To me, if a guy is happy being a grunt, or a tank driver, or a squad leader and he's a subject matter expert and WANTS to remain a squad leader and doesn't mind not getting promoted, then he should be allowed to stay. This is just my opinion, but especially in the technical fields, I think it is essential. Not every good squad leader makes a good Platoon Sergeant. Not every good platoon sergeant will make a good SEA. Not ever Spec 4 wants to lead his shop. I don't believe in promoting to someone's level of incompetence.

Take a look at the records of the talking heads on TV today. This Institute for the Study of War, that nobody ever heard of before Ukraine. Go look up those officer's records. Then go ask some folks who were on the line as captains and majors and CSM's who had to deal with them. If they tell the truth, you'll understand why I have zero respect for any of them. Did we win Iraq? Afghanistan? No, and those generals were in charge. Our senior leadership is far too political today. That is a shame. I think we need to go back to basics. I don't think there's anything terribly wrong with today's recruits in general. However, after raising 5 kids (my son is the youngest at 21 and none of them went into any service), I can tell you that times have changed and you need a radically different approach to understand them. Many came from totally undisciplined homes or single parent homes. They may be lazy, they may be overweight, and compared to when I came in, they are far more intelligent. Possibly TOO intelligent in many ways.

You can always tell the kids who were "raised right". Yes sir and No Ma'm come easily to them. However, one thing many of them never learned was self discipline. I firmly believe that self discipline comes from avoiding discipline. WHICH is why this post is so long. I had no self discipline. I was, in fact "Little Lord Fauntleroy" (go look that up for you folks who have never heard of it). I was an only kid, adopted to save a failing, sterile marriage. Cost my folks 250 bucks to adopt me. They shouldn't have been allowed to adopt a dog.

I was angry, confused, and had a redwood tree for a chip on my shoulder. Thanks to a few good police officers, NCO's and line officers, who took an interest in me, I got turned around (and yes, the Academy helped). I was never real good at taking orders, but I was an innovator in an era of butt kissers and I got a lot of respect from my own troops for ensuring that the buck stopped with me going both ways. Any officer or anyone else who tried to discipline my troops got it with both barrels.

Your troops don't have to love you, nor like you, but they damned well need to respect you. That respect HAS to be earned. I was lucky enough during the start of my career to have folks above me who were Vietnam Vets. That staff sergeant named Ballog? He was 82nd, served five consecutive tours in Vietnam. Short guy, not all that muscular. But he could take you apart. "Tough as nails" comes to mind. But by the end of that basic training tour, we all had a huge amount of respect for the man and probably would have followed him thru hell. That this impression this man made on us, over 40 years ago, still remains shows what an IMPACT that man had. One thing about him, he never held a grudge..though I imagine he still remembers that porta potti thing...lol

But just remember that MY old school days are long gone, as is the country I served. There are no more "Code Reds". No more discipline from your peers with the green wool sock and a bar of ivory soap. There is a huge difference between humiliation and discipline. I always tried to keep discipline off the books as much as possible. NOT just because of the amount of documentation and time.

The folks whose careers I saved WANTED the help. Like I said, most of the folks who worked for me were on their way out. But I will tell you that not a one of them didn't have a place to go to for holiday dinners either. Some I had to force out. MOUNTAINS of paperwork. I had a reputation as a total prick. But those who worked for me ALL said I was completely the opposite of my reputation. I didn't just train, I TAUGHT. I stood up to anyone who tried to mess with them. I wound up losing decorations for myself over this..when I wouldn't mark someone down because other people had zero documentation of any offense. I rated them on how they worked for ME. I had a base commander try to intervene in a performance report once. He literally ORDERED me to change my rating. I refused. "Sir, that's why you have a NON CONCUR block. Feel free to use it". And watched my own report get literally cut in half. So be it.

I was never so happy than when one of my "Kids" got promoted past me. I had several do the Mustang thing and I was always the one who got that coin for a first salute. I gave them credit for their ideas and if those ideas backfired I took the blame, not them. Never ONCE did I take credit for something I didn't originate and even then, my "kids" got the credit if it worked. Even if it WAS my idea. I think the most rewarding thing for a real leader is watching his troops succeed. It was for me at least. I could have cared less for awards & Decs for myself. For my troops yes, for me? Couldn't care less. I never had a ME wall and never will. No shadow box for retirement, not even a retirement certificate. I simply served my country and never asked nor needed recognition for it. But that was back then. Now you folks have a far harder row to hoe.

To this day I run into folks in the commissary who come up and thank me for what I did for them. Half the time I have no clue who they are..but for some reason they remember me. I'm not perfect never was nor wanted to be a saint. Just remember that "Every Saint has a past, and every sinner has a future". As NCO's, we're in the business of raising Saints, in many ways. While helping those entrusted to us to redeem their sins. While I never agreed with the "whole person concept" and never will, after traveling the world and seeing both wonderful humanity and the evil humanity visits upon itself, I can state that certain parts of that philosophy aren't a bad thing. Americans are HORRIBLY provincial. The folks who have gone out and seen the world (which is most servicemen in this day and age of wearing 2 or more hats), the more aware of the world you become. Less ignorant of other cultures and ideas. When I was in, they were actively LOOKING for innovators, and my own performance reports prove that I made a difference.

Most kids today think they will NEVER make a difference and that is wrong. The key is leading them to the understanding that they CAN make a difference. I scored high 90's on my ASVAB. In all but one, administration. That was a 60. My son took his and had to retake it 3 times. Because he got high 90s every single time. Last time he had the proctor over his shoulder for the entire test. Again, high 90's. He was grossly offended that they thought he was cheating. Never given an apology for doubting his word. He steadfastly refuses to join the colors over that. He's not a polymath by any means, but he's a smart sharp kid whose dad encouraged him to read and research (his mom died in 2009 at 40, no warning, from brain cancer. He was just 8. Remember the curse of your parents. "I hope you have one JUST LIKE YOU!". I sure did. He finally moved out of the house about 4 months ago. Moved in with his stepsister and her family. She's always telling me "He won't stop being YOU, dad!" He is no more suited to military life than I was..if he ever joins, it wil be because HE wanted to. Not because I pressured him into it (though I do think it would be just as good for him as it was for me, but HE needs to be taken down a few pegs too.

I wish all of you a great 4th of July. My birthday as well. Take time over that holiday to think about the kind of leader you are. Write down your strengths and weaknesses and have a few compatriots do the same. It can be rather eye opening. Keep an open mind. Do NOT get defensive over what they write, nor offended. You may be extremely surprised at what you THINK your strengths are versus what others see in you. A lot of times we leaders lose sight of what is important. There is a far distance between being a subject matter expert and being infallible. With today's "kids" we need to explain things far more thoroughly than we did back when I was a young man. Used to be, orders were orders and not to be questioned. I ALWAYS asked for questions and asked them of my superiors. I saved my services over a million dollars a year every single year I was in, more or less.

Even on something as simple as movement to contact practice. Let them ask the questions. The stupidest question is the one you fail to ask. Let them make mistakes. That's how we learn, after all.

I know this got off the topic here, but after surviving two cancers, I felt it was time to throw some hard earned experience out there. Take it for what it is worth. Just remember that the folks under you grew up in a VERY different world from what you, as a mid level NCO, grew up in. My world, MY United States that I grew up in was gone by 1990 or so. The world YOU grew up in is gone as well. "Kids" today are confronted with problems we never ever had to face. My son is terrified of a nuclear exchange. He won't ask a woman out on a date for fear of being arrested for harassment. You must remember that today's "Kids" face pressures that didn't even really EXIST when we were kids. As supervisors and leaders, you will face MANY issues I never had to face. Whatever happens, never be afraid to enforce the rules. Guard your honor and integrity. There may come a time when that's all you own, aside from the shirt on your back. These "kids" NEED your life experience. Not just discipline, but EXPERIENCE. The world today IS a very difficult, if not overwhelming place. Many folks under 25 years old are still trying to figure out who they are, behind all the bluster and bravado.

Some of us never do. While your "toolbox" is missing some of the tools I mentioned today, you can find other tools to replace it (I hope). Just remember that in this day and age of very low recruitment, keeping good people IN our armed forces is critical. NOW you see the fallacy behind the "up or out" philosophy. Some folks are just not leadership material. But that doesn't mean they are useless. Whether we, as NCO's can find a way to combat that fallacy, is unknown. But I think our retention figures would be way up IF they had that option. The idea is worth exploring. As for this example, Learn from it. This isn't a unique problem. Standards are standards, after all. But the idea of a "one mistake" armed force is anathema to me. People have bad days, and they make mistakes. OUR job is to ensure that they learn from them and sometimes, we have to be a parent or an adult as well as a leader and mentor. No different from having kids of your own.

But ALWAYS remember that some people are just bad. Nothing that you can do will change that person. Just like an alcoholic or drug abuser..the only way they will reform is if they WANT to. If they're a super hard case, do the paperwork and get them out the door. Just remember that there are causes for EVERY behavior. We can't fix all of them, we can't prevent them. But we can mitigate them sometimes. Kids today come up in a world far different from the one we grew up in What worked on US may not work at all or might even backfire if used today.

One thing I REALLY recommend if you can swing it is to go sit in a high school classroom for a day if you can arrange it. Once you see it, you might understand them better when they become your problem...

thanks for reading, THAN YOU ALL FOR YOUR SERVICE and have a GREAT Fourth Of July when it gets here. Take time to remember. Visit a VA hospital. Help out with a community project if you can.
But remember what made this country great. In coming weeks, months and years you may resent some things that are happening. Never forget that we are here to serve our country. Those who solely want to serve themselves have no place here.

Fuck that you were as right as right could be!

I think you probably should have given the First shirt the opportunity to resolve it. It is skipping the chain of command, and might bring the 1st Sgt. down on you for doing so. I hate to sound old, but back in my day, that would have ended up in a wall to wall counseling session.

This E5 is wrong with his Bad Attitude, the CSM is wrong for not siding with you, get the others to file a COMPLAINT and hand it over to CSM and he doesn’t do anything at that point, then it shows the CSM has NO confidence in his NCO’s, and he should resign or retire, he is not a True Leader or wants to set the example of a Leader and siding with E5 just makes my point