What are your thoughts on units using the EST to qualify on weapons?

Here are the Army's thoughts
ALARACT 027/2013 DTG: R 042121Z FEB 13

THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN TRANSMITTED BY USAITA ON BEHALF OF//DAMO-TR/G-37//

SUBJECT: INDIVIDUAL WEAPONS QUALIFICATION USING ENGAGEMENT SKILLS TRAINER (EST) 2000

REF:
A. FM 3-22.9, RIFLE MARKSMANSHIP M16/M4 SERIES WEAPONS (AUG 2008)
B. FM 3-23.35, COMBAT TRAINING WITH PISTOLS, M9 AND M11 (W CHG 4 2008)
C. FM 3-22.68, CREW SERVED WEAPONS (2006)
D. FM 3-22.65, BROWNING MACHINE GUN, CALIBER .50 HB, M2 (W/CHG1 2007)
C. AR 350-1, ARMY TRAINING AND LEADER DEVELOPMENT (AUG 2011)
D. DA PAM 350-38, STANDARDS IN WEAPONS TRAINING (OCT 2012)

1. (U) THE ENGAGEMENT SKILLS TRAINER (EST) 2000 IS NOT AN AUTHORIZED SUBSTITUTE FOR
LIVE-FIRE QUALIFICATION. LIVE-FIRE QUALIFICATION PROCEDURES WILL BE FOLLOWED IAW
FM 3-22.9, FM 3-22.68, FM 3-22.65, FM 3-23.35, AR 350-1 AND DA PAM 350-38 EXCEPT WHERE
OUTLINED BELOW.

2. (U) TRAINING INSTALLATIONS EQUIPPED WITH THE EST 2000 WILL CONDUCT M9 AND M16
CHEMICAL, BIOLOGICAL, RADIOLOGICAL, AND NUCLEAR (CBRN) AND UNASSISTED NIGHT
QUALIFICATIONS USING EST 2000. 10-METER QUALIFICATION FIRE FOR THE M249 AND M240 WILL BE
CONDUCTED IN EST 2000. 10-METER TRAINING FOR THE M2 WILL BE CONDUCTED IN EST 2000.

3. (U) TRAINING INSTALLATIONS WITHOUT THE EST 2000 WILL CONDUCT CBRN AND UNASSISTED
NIGHT QUALIFICATIONS USING BALL AMMUNITION IAW FM 3-22.9 AND FM 3-23.35. 10-METER
QUALIFICATION FIRING FOR THE M249, M240, AND THE M2 WILL BE CONDUCTED WITH BALL
AMMUNITION IAW FM 3-22.68.

4. (U) THE USE OF SIMULATORS (EST 2000) AS A TRAINING TOOL IS ENCOURAGED PRIOR TO
CONDUCTING LIVE FIRE QUALIFICATION. IT DOES NOT, HOWEVER, REPLACE NOR SHOULD IT BE
USED AS AN ALTERNATE FORM OF LIVE FIRE QUALIFICATION.

5. POC FOR DISTRIBUTION AND TECHNICAL CONCERNS IS MR. WILLIE RICE, HQDA DAMO TRA, DSN
222-9052, E-MAIL [login to see] .

6. EXPIRATION DATE FOR THIS MESSAGE IS 14 DECEMBER 2017 UNLESS FORMALLY RESCINDED OR
SUPERSEDED BY OTHER POLICY.

There is no substitute, in my opinion, for the feel of firing a real weapon. Budget restraints have taken a lot of range time away from units and it hurts our readiness as a force.

We will however be the best trained virtual warfare force on the planet.

My thoughts on it are that its fucking stupid. I've seen guys at the local bar playing "deer hunter" that can shoot expert

I hope they have improved them since they were introduced in My days...

SSG Aaron Marshall ,
Leverage all available resources when the opportunity for a physical range does not exist.

I guess it's fine to qualify, as long as leaders get their Soldiers out there to actual ranges and conduct advanced marksmanship training such as stress shooting, shooting from different positions, shooting while moving or turning, etc, to better simulate what they need to be ready for.

The EST is crap...

Waste of time. Half the time most of the lanes are down and then you have to try to cycle an entire unit through 3 lanes.

Hate it. Can't hit anyhing on EST, qualify expert every time at a real range. Maybe it's with how I see things, but it just doesn't work for me.

The world's greatest military and we can't afford or make time to shoot real weapons- someone needs a kick in the ass to motivate them.

I disagree unless it is included solely for reaction time issues. The EST is a great tool for preparing Soldiers for combat situations, but it is not the same as firing an actual weapon on the range!

Units and leaders had better get used to the idea, especially in the Reserves and National Guard. We just don't have the funds and ammo for actual range training anymore, plus the additional costs of transporting, billeting, and feeding Soldiers at a distant range site.
This is the new Army; doing more with less, and technology helps bridge the gap between theory and application.

Doesn't replace the feel of firing live rounds and you can use the EST down range to engage the enemy.

The last time I used EST we had just got done rucking, the heat coming off us combined with the cool air of the room made our eye pro fog up like crazy. A lot of guys missed their targets. This was a stand up react to contact exercise. The instructor was annoyed by the poor performance. I asked to do it again and she agreed. I pulled my eye pro off, she told me I had to wear them. I insisted and explained the situation to my SGT and got the go ahead.

I hit every target that time around.

The EST simulates recoil fairly well, definitely not the noise, and it can give different options on a moments notice for training. Though I'm not sure it should be used as the only means to qualify but rather an addition to training.

However if a proper range is not available or there is a restriction on ammunition for whatever reason then you do what you have to do.

That's a slippery slope...

DO you use the EST to engage the enemy? NO!
It is a training tool.

The EST 2000 is a training tool and for many, their first introduction in using a weapon on a range, working as a squad or utilizing a variety of weapons in a carefully controlled environment. However, it is just that, a simulation. Nothing can replace time spent in the field, putting rounds down range. The EST 2000 is the classroom portion of going to the range where units can hone the skills of their shooters and bring up the skill levels of those that struggle. It should not be used as a qualification tool, though some units use it that way. In the Army Reserve we too often use it as a training tool with no follow up. Without proper maintenance and care the system tends to break down and becomes frustrating to even the best marksman. Some will gain skills using it, others will not. But everything becomes real when you slap a magazine into your weapon with live rounds and engage targets from a real weapon, on a real range with and without real optics.

While simulators are good for practice, they can never replace actually firing a weapon.

Back in the 90's there was the Multi-Purpose Arcade Combat Simulator (M.A.C.S.) which was essentially a Nintendo game with an fake M-16 attached. There was no recoil and you were shooting targets on a TV just a few feet away, but it helped get the fundamentals down and cost next to nothing for soldiers to practice their shooting.

On range days, you could tell who had been using it to practice because they generally scored better.

That being said, it could not account for recoil, shadows, sun or wind effects.

Simulators have become a lot better since then, but the point still stands. Nothing can replace actually firing a real weapon with live ammo.

http://www.snescentral.com/article.php?id=0901

The EST is good for training but nothing beats qualifying at an actual range because not only are joes are going to the range but they are also seeing how a range is being set up and ran so there is more to qualifying when going to an actual range.

Just to chime in...

As mentioned several times, the EST cannot be used for qualification. Having said that, the Army is moving towards a 6 table format outlined in TC 2-21.0 (Individual and Crew live fire prerequisite testing) for all qualifications. (though not all the manuals have been published).
For small arms this works out as follows:
Table I: PMI
Table II: Simulation (EST)
Table III: Basic (think dime and washer drills)
Table VI: Zero
Table V: Practice
Table VI: Qualification

Unfortunately, to my knowledge, STRAC has not been updated to provide for the additional 40 rounds per Soldier to cover Table V.