Posted on Oct 6, 2023
SPC UH-60 Helicopter Repairer
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I haven’t been specifically directed or ordered to transport said soldier but I would like to refuse and I would like to be able to protect myself with facts to be on the safe side
Posted in these groups: Ar Army Regulations
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Responses: 25
SGM Erik Marquez
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Edited 2 y ago
There is no such Reg, and certainly no local policy requiring such.
Id guess this is an SM that lives near you that has no legal mode of transport and has cited that as to why they cannot get to the required place of duty on time or at all.. the COC is thinking "Well heck, Isom lives right next door, SPC Dingleberry can ride with him.

I was taught by a Senor NCO I much respected, unless it's illegal or immoral, don't say no,,,, Instade let the leader know what it will take to make it a yes.

My solution to the scenario I made up and laid out above?
"Marqueze, need to give SPC Dingleberry a ride into PT in the morning and home after the last formation"
"Ok 1SG I can do that"
"Dingleberry, meet me at my car in the morning, I'll be leaving for PT at 03:30, Text him the same info"
At 03:30:01 depart for work.
"Marquez, where is Dingleberry?"
"He did not show up for the ride"
12 hours later
"Marquez give Dingleberry a ride home"
"Ok 1SG"
"Marquez, why are we going this way....Away from our apartment complex? "
"Oh, Im going to a laundry mat in the next town over, doing 2 weeks of laundry, and washing all my TA-50...Oh by the way, I am leaving for PT at 03:15 in the morning, be there if you want a ride"

Ride-sharing will be terminated by Dingleberry or the COC soon enough......And if I was your 1SG, I'd not even be mad at ya.
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SFC John Lovelady
SFC John Lovelady
2 y
SGM Erik Marquez - This is an example of someone in SPC Dingleberry's Support Chain needs to be held accountable.
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MSG Richard Medina
MSG Richard Medina
2 y
SGM Erik Marquez I stand corrected. I wasn't aware that SM housing was controlled by civilians on US bases. As they were when arrived in Iraq the 2nd time in 2008-09. I was assigned to Ft. Hood in 1988-90, and units controlled the barracks/apartment buildings assigned/or near Co./Bn HQs to them.
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TSgt James Warfield
TSgt James Warfield
2 y
My thought is why wouldn't you want to help a fellow soldier? I mean put down parameters as suggested by SGM Erik. Be at your place by a certain time after that you leave, or if it's picking up someone on the way then they need to be outside waiting when you arrive. Now days with everyone having a cell phone you could easily text them you are leaving, be ready, as suggested earlier they need to be ready at certain time no excuses.
If you aren't going straight home afterwards, let the person know so they can make other arrangements. Let the 1 sgt know that you want to help, but there may be days you can't as family has to come first.
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SGM Erik Marquez
SGM Erik Marquez
2 y
TSgt James Warfield - I think a lot of it will depend on the SM in question. If its the SM that is always there helping out on a team task, not causing the team to catch flack for goofing off, if they learn from honest mistakes, ect ect.. Then you bet, I'll be outside at 05:00 meet me at my car...kind of thing as well as, lets figure out a plan to get you some transportation of your own.

OTOH ...If its SPC the screw up...who’s only daily goal is to get over as much as possible...... Enjoy the pre PT work out getting to formation.
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LTC Kevin B.
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Edited 2 y ago
You will probably want to get verification on this (Legal Assistance Office, IG, etc.), but I think you're on solid ground, although a reasonable argument can be made to "pick and choose your battles". This assumes that you're not leaving out pertinent details on your situation.

Look at AR 58-1, "Management, Acquisition, and Use of Motor Vehicles", dated 2020.

From the reg:

Summary: "This regulation prescribes Department of the Army policies, responsibilities, and procedures for the management, acquisition, and use of Army-owned, Army-leased, or otherwise controlled non-tactical vehicles. It implements DODM 4500.36 and DODI 4500.36."

Your command can argue that your POV is not an "Army-owned, Army-leased, or otherwise
controlled non-tactical vehicle", so the regulation does not apply to your situation. Read into the regulation and you'll find a great nugget that supports your position.

Applicability: "This regulation applies to the Regular Army, the Army National Guard/Army National Guard of the United States, and the U.S. Army Reserve, unless otherwise stated. Also, it applies to all Department of the Army Civilian employees, foreign nationals, and contractors employed by Department of the Army."

I don't know your status, but this rules out any command argument that "the reg doesn't apply to us". It applies to AD, USAR, and NG.

From Chapter 2-1:
"b. When allocating resources for transportation missions, planning begins with a determination that motor vehicle transportation is essential for the performance of an official mission. When such a determination is made, the following methods will be considered in the order shown, subject to their availability and capability to meet the mission:
(1) Scheduled Government bus transportation service.
(2) Specially scheduled Government-leased or Government-owned bus transportation.
(3) Government-owned or Government-leased NTVs.
(4) Voluntary use of privately-owned vehicle (POV) on a reimbursable basis.
(5) Taxicab on a reimbursable basis."

In the absence of guidance that they can require you to use your POV to transport other soldiers for a valid mission requirement, this reg indicates that you must have volunteered to use your POV, and that you must be reimbursed.

Also, there's a fiscal law argument against this because using your POV for free (assuming no reimbursement) is an in-kind donation to your unit, and that is against the law (it's called "supplementing an appropriation"). This is a very minor violation of the law, but it still may very well be considered a violation. For example, a billionaire can't donate money to build a new military hospital in support of an installation's healthcare mission. Congress considers that a violation of appropriation law because if they wanted you to have a new hospital, they would have appropriated money for a new hospital. The absence of the appropriated money means they do not authorize a new hospital. At a much lower level, the same thing goes if your command tells you to use your personal funds to buy fuel for a military HMMWV ("supplementing an appropriation"). Likewise, a troop can't make an in-kind donation in support of an operational mission, such as being required to use your POV (compensated or otherwise). The amounts are all very different, but they are still violations.

Again, verify this, but this reg seems to support your position.
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1LT Chaplain Candidate
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Even if there is a regulation, it's likely an obscure legal/ethical federal policy and it won't do you any good to cite it. It will likely cause eye rolls.

That being said, your local legal team or even the IG will back you if you wanted to push the issue. I've seen it before, Soldiers not wanting to use their POV for something. It's perfectly fine, that's your right. So, if you're sure about this, just bring it up in discussion through your chain of command.

However, do it as a team player. Offer alternatives to the situation. Protecting yourself in this isn't about throwing the book back in the face of your leadership, it's about standing up for yourself while also displaying commitment to the success of others and the willingness to serve.

Remember, this job requires sacrifice. Sometimes that means running into a hail of gunfire to pull someone off the X, and sometimes that means waking up early on our own time to drive someone with our own vehicle to CQ, that is miles away.
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1LT Chaplain Candidate
1LT (Join to see)
2 y
SFC Joe Mama -This job, morally and legally, demands upright character. Thinking of others as just as important as yourself, if not more so, is expected. It's written into our doctrine, if not already seen as common sense.

Therefore, if someone responds to some type of request like this from their leadership with a flat out "No. That's mine, I don't have to do anything you ask because that's mine." Then, continues to try and punish their leader for making the request, they have completely rejected the spirit of military service in this country. Knowing what you can do and what you should do are two different things. Responding to leaders with spite and selfishness, even if legal, means that you don't know the difference.
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SGT Air Defense Radar Repairer
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1LT (Join to see) - Let me ask you this. Is the military going to pick up the extra cost of fuel and upkeep of the soldiers POV. Is the military going to cover all costs if said POV is involved in an accident . Is the military going to insure the individual using their own POV to transport people back and forth to work. And since the question indicated "soldiers to their military duties" one has to ask if a CDL or other license is required in said individuals state, are vehicle Inspections required for said vehicle that transports individuals and what documentation will be needed to be kept to meet legal requirements for the transportation of individuals. Since its military would any dangerous items be transported in said vehicle.

If they live off post then they can buy a bicycle and ride back and forth everyday.

Good leaders do not put their people into legally precarious situations like this and if they do so they are abdicating their responsibility as a leader and should be relieved.
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1LT Chaplain Candidate
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SGT (Join to see) ... I don't believe you have listened to anything I have said.
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SGT Air Defense Radar Repairer
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1LT (Join to see) Oh I did and I stand by my remarks as they are correct.
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What Army regulation covers me being forced to use my POV to transport other soldiers for Army duties? Am I required to do it?
Cpl Vic Burk
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We all have to do things in life whether civilian or military that we don't want to do. All I can say is, choose your battles wisely. You may be right but is it worth it to be right? If you do transport I would expect some sort of compensation by someone for at least the gas expended to do this.
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CPT Staff Officer
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I'm going to say there isn't one. Someone please point me out if I'm wrong.

Like there probably isn't a regulation that requires us to own personal cell/smart phones, or personally pay for internet connection at home to have access to Mil e-mail, but it's probably a good idea if one wants to get through life.

However..................... Let's not over think this. I would presume your chain of command has on the books a Government Vehicle. I and Jr enlisted are commonly allowed to use my unit's car quite often.

So let's say there is no regulation, and your chain of command has you use your car. Where your chain of command is going to get crushed is if anything goes wrong, and they didn't have a POV vehicle safety program in place that inspected every single POV in your unit and kept a roster, and made sure each of you in the unit have a valid DL and current insurance.

*********************
So, what I would do as a SPC is just indicate to your chain of command that your car has some safety issues (needs service, or some sort of out of spec item). Of course you've now pegged yourself for not being allowed to have your vehicle on post (pending inspection).

Choose your battles, and ask for the unit's government vehicle and gas card.

Be the SPC that is the go to guy to drive people around in the GOV car and to all the paperwork for the milage and gas card. Or be the SPC that get's assigned range duty at 0400hrs.
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1LT Chaplain Candidate
1LT (Join to see)
2 y
I think you're on the money here sir!
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SSgt Investigative Analyst
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Edited 2 y ago
This happened to me once right after I got to my last duty station.

I had just gotten home. It was late. I had to get up in six hours and do it all again, I had not eaten yet, and I was tired. Then the phone rang. My squad leader, MSgt Delgado, needed a ride to get his car out of the shop.

Man, I was pissed. I had just gotten my boots off. I had PCSd in to Tyndall AFB just a couple of months prior and I barely knew MSgt Delgado. I saw him twenty minutes ago on base and he never said anything about needing a ride. This was going to take at least an hour. Surely, there was another NCO, or an E4 with a car, he could call.

“Roger that, Master Sergeant. I’m en route.”

I didn’t get any time off for that. I didn’t get coined or a letter of appreciation. He said thanks that night and it never came up again. But it went a long way with leadership in establishing my dependability to the team and my commitment to my team members.

I’ve had to drive people home when they called at 0200 because they were too drunk to get home safely. I’ve had to bail team members out of jail, or drive them to the hospital. I had to counsel a pregnant Airman who didn't trust her new squad leader and didn't feel comfortable going to the First Sergeant. I never thought they were abusing our relationship, or taking advantage of me. It just became necessary sometimes as an NCO to take care of troops after duty hours.
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CPT Senior Instructor
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There is no regulation. I have dealt with this. You have to use common sense. There are times when you will see a Soldier need to go to an appointment and they don't have a vehicle. The way I like to approach it is to ask if someone can give them a ride. I really haven't had a issue with it. But if there was a situation were the Soldier didn't want to then there is nothing that can happen to you. If you were to say you don't feel comfortable with riding with an unknown person in your car then your leader can't make you. But this comes down being a team player.
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SFC Ralph E Kelley
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Edited 2 y ago
I had a similar situation but not exactly the same. I was told by my 2LT that I was going to be required to inspect my soldier’s vehicle at his off-post home. That was because he used the excuse the vehicle was broken and that’s why he hadn’t been to the motorpool on time. Which was odd because his wife was seen driving into the PX about 2 hours afterwards.
We handled it within our platoon. It was a simple lie and cost him his promotion recomendation for SPC.
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SCPO Yeoman
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I say you cannot be ordered to transport anyone in your POV. So many ways for you to be placed into legal and/or financial jeopardy. Examples: Collision with passenger injuries and passengers demand compensation and/or sue you. Police traffic stop and one of your passengers is in possession of contraband item(s) and shoves item(s) towards you to get rid of it and law enforcement thinks that it's yours. See what I'm saying. So many possible detrimental scenarios. Whole can of worms could be opened up. Insurance company raises your rates because of something that happened and you didn't even want those people in your vehicle. Think ahead. And if you don't think anything bad can or will happen trust me it can.
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
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If you have a valid reason for not wanting to transport a fellow soldier, simply state your reasons to whoever is asking/ordering/directing.
If your reasoning is sound you should be okay. If you are just being contrary it will not reflect well on you as a Soldier.
If you were to share your logic for refusing I'm sure we could give you better guidance.
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A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney
2 y
SFC Joe Mama - .....
We Called It Cooperation And Caring...
Helping Out Where & When Needed, NOT Required.
It's Done Because It NEEDS To Be Done.
So We Did It.
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
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GySgt Kenneth Pepper
GySgt Kenneth Pepper
2 y
SFC Joe Mama - It shows a lack of character. Kind of like creating a fictitious account with unverifiable profile info.
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