Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What do you "Honestly" think about women attending Ranger School?
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Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Women in the Military
Ranger
Ranger School
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 240
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I guess my outlook on it is they have to pass all the same physical demands as the men. Having trained in Martial arts for several years now, I have to say that I have come across a lot of woman who can do physically what men can do and often more, however, I also know that the military is no exception to its stressful environments and super demanding physically, but I think that if they can complete the same training as the men without helping hands, then why not? Woman have been serving in combat for years in Israel for example but the real question is how can they avoid infections and deal with their biological differences over long periods of forced field work. It's definitely a crazy issue and I'm glad I don't have to make that decision.
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Honestly? If they can do the job to the same standards as the male candidates, I encourage them.
We need soldiers who are dedicated to doing their jobs and doing them well. Don't discourage someone from a job simply because a particular demographic traditionally did it.
We need soldiers who are dedicated to doing their jobs and doing them well. Don't discourage someone from a job simply because a particular demographic traditionally did it.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
Or...we could enter the 21st century.
If someone can do the job, and they are volunteering to do the job, then they should be able to do the job.
Honestly, I wouldn't have been able to hack it in Ranger school. I have the mental toughness, but physically would be found lacking. However, in my 43 year sojourn across the face of this planet, I have known MANY people of both genders who could hack it. One of my squad leaders could have done it in her day, and she was far from testosterone-pumped or exoskeleton-ed. She was just plain tough and strong and determined.
If someone can do the job, and they are volunteering to do the job, then they should be able to do the job.
Honestly, I wouldn't have been able to hack it in Ranger school. I have the mental toughness, but physically would be found lacking. However, in my 43 year sojourn across the face of this planet, I have known MANY people of both genders who could hack it. One of my squad leaders could have done it in her day, and she was far from testosterone-pumped or exoskeleton-ed. She was just plain tough and strong and determined.
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Sounds like you're whining just as much as you would accuse women of whining. I'd love to see one of those "tough as nails" females hammer you down to the ground like the sexist you are. It is oh so simple, if they pass they pass, if they fail, guess what? They fail.
Women time after time have proven themselves and the reasoning you have provided sounds petty and unrealistic. Women of our Armed Services, continue to make your brothers proud!! We all know there are female service members that are tougher than a lot of the male service members we know personally. Personally, I'm proud and excited to see women climb these barriers.
Women time after time have proven themselves and the reasoning you have provided sounds petty and unrealistic. Women of our Armed Services, continue to make your brothers proud!! We all know there are female service members that are tougher than a lot of the male service members we know personally. Personally, I'm proud and excited to see women climb these barriers.
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So I have read through all the comments made so far. And initially I was not going to respond but .... I guess seeing as the male "old timers" have commented I will too.
When I joined the military 34 years ago (wow don't I now feel old :-) ) the physical standards between men and women were a lot closer than they are today. Why have they widened the gap between expectations? Because of the complaints that the standards were too hard. I understand that there are some women out there that can pass Ranger School BUT the majority cannot. And once complaints start rolling in, the standards will most likely change. Look towards history for proof that it will happen. When that happens, it will not be better because it is equal, it will be worse cause we will have weakened our ability to protect each other and our country. If I thought that the standards would remain the same, I would be all for it. But unfortunately I fear that it will not.
When I joined the military 34 years ago (wow don't I now feel old :-) ) the physical standards between men and women were a lot closer than they are today. Why have they widened the gap between expectations? Because of the complaints that the standards were too hard. I understand that there are some women out there that can pass Ranger School BUT the majority cannot. And once complaints start rolling in, the standards will most likely change. Look towards history for proof that it will happen. When that happens, it will not be better because it is equal, it will be worse cause we will have weakened our ability to protect each other and our country. If I thought that the standards would remain the same, I would be all for it. But unfortunately I fear that it will not.
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If they can make the cut through selection then by all means these women deserve to serve side-by-side and wear that tan beret with pride.
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Go for it! Women serve all combat positions in the Isreali Defense Force.. and everyone knows how robust that force is! Our women veterans served with great honor in OEF/OIF!
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This almost means an instant washout for the female candidates. No it is not a good enough percentage for any school.
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Well, I'll put it like this - Ranger School is a school, Ranger Regiment is a unit. Having the Tab makes one Ranger qualified, having the Scroll makes one a Ranger. It could be fairly stated that Ranger School is that special place where soldiers can be trained to act like Marines, though I did not get to wear a 'Marine' tab when I got my Army commission. If one uses this calculus, then females have been proving for years that they have the quality to be Rangers, and all the young female Marines that have of late passed the School of Infantry, well that simply underscores the point - the problem with the integration is not the females (the Israelis proved that), the problem is with the males - the challenges will only be resolved by leadership.
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Thanks to whoever put the picture up, adds a real face of our Future Female Ranger candidates.
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