Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What do you "Honestly" think about women attending Ranger School?
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Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Women in the Military
Ranger
Ranger School
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 240
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I honestly believe if they can do the job, let them. I'm not a Ranger and probably never will be, however peers of mine that I had the honor of commissioning with were one of the first female FA Officers in the Army and they can do their damn job very well. So if a female can make the cut, let them attend and earn that tab
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I've been retired quite awhile now. Are there now Combat MOS in which females are accepted?
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Am I the only one out of 10k+ that thinks this retired 1SG remarks about women and Ranger school is way out of line, and borders on the old mentality of sexist and 1950ish way of saying a woman's place is in the home!? Hell yeah you get a down vote from me. Glad you retired to your private "women should not serve in a Ranger BAT black hole" What an idiot statement by a senior NCO....no wait a private remark
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1SG David Lopez
No ones calling you an idiot. I am entitled to my opinion just as you and everybody is. We are professionals here that want to communicate and learn. If you seen some of my responses, I am supportive of Females attending RS. My stance is that I (and many others) do not want the standards changed in order to cater to a specific group. Although I am Old School, I am open to criticism, I learn, I try to be considerate, I have learned from females on RP that they do not want the standards changed. That means alot to me. I am new to RP, but I know that this is a site for military / Veterans / Professionals, so let's act as such.
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SFC A.M. Drake
I did not call you an idiot personally. I called the statement you made an idiot comment.
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I'm not a ranger. With that disclosure- I wonder where the feminine Hygiene products will be carried as part of the combat load. How many will be on the packing list?
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SGT Joy Turpin
I have heard your argument before and I still find it as silly as: Rangers are quite frequently in situations where sleeping arrangements cannot be separated all the time, we would not want to cause sexual hostility or frustration..... that one doesn't make much sense either. It suggests that females are so addle brained that they cannot think ahead....
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PO1 Donald Hammond
Isn't there a shot for that?
This is one of the concerns that has been listed for women on submarines. Pads etc could easily plug up the plumbing. Not good on a sub. Not sure how that was solved or if it even was. Of course that is a minor point compared to others.
This is one of the concerns that has been listed for women on submarines. Pads etc could easily plug up the plumbing. Not good on a sub. Not sure how that was solved or if it even was. Of course that is a minor point compared to others.
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God never intended for a woman to be over a man. For you women can put the blame on eve. After the fall of man women became property of man. Man was given the ultimate responsibility to take care of his wife. His wife is to come before children or anyone else. We as a country have totally lost our way. I'll serve and fight for this nation again. Women do not belong in the armed services. The men are to protect the wife and the wife is to be caretaker.
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SGT (Join to see)
Not everyone is a A Christian and so not everyone should be required to follow your rule book. A Great many people in the service are, however, Christian. But then they don't have to follow your little rule book either. This country was founded on the ideas of equality. It might just turn out that this whole bit doesn't work, but the best way to find out is to try.
In short, I don't care what your god did or did not intend.
In short, I don't care what your god did or did not intend.
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SGT Joy Turpin
I am a Christian and PFC Boone, you have a very misguided interpretation of what God intended. It would make me laugh, if it were not so bad....
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My patience for people who don't understand there are no standard changes was left on my 8 mile run.... somewhere... on the road... stay physically fit my friends.
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SPC Kortney Kistler
The dual standard I was referring to is what distinctively make someone male or female and the problems that come with coupling in a mixed gender unit.
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CPT (Join to see)
1SG David Lopez Ha! I'm almost certain they're going to change all combat arms pt test to something like that anyway.
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CPT Keith Steinhurst
Hmmm - are you doing that 8 mile run to standard? That would be 8 out and 8 back!
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CPT (Join to see)
Well that depends Sir. I don't know if your standard is lower or higher than mine. Last time a Commander set a standard... I exceeded it.
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As soon as a gender distinction has been made it becomes the problem. Concessions need to be made in any given situation to accommodate females. Concessions do not need to be made to accommodate soldiers.
Whether or not she is equal to or better than her male counterparts is irrelevant. The plain and simple truth is, it's a female in a sea of males. She will be looked upon as different. To be quite frank it is out of uniform.
The gender lines will always be there as long as there is a dual standard.
The dual standard I was referring to is what distinctively make someone male or female and the problems that come with coupling in a mixed gender unit.
If you want to get a tab, go get it. I couldn't care less. It's a very big accomplishment to earn it.
There is enough of the sex and dating and high-school bs that goes on when not deployed, it gets worse during. Infidelity, hurt feelings, resentment, and people not doing their jobs because they are otherwise concerned with matters of the opposite sex.
Again, go earn your tab. But 1 or 2 females in an otherwise all male unit is a big problem.
It's bad deal when you have Joe's from other unit stalking around your AO because you have females.
We actually had a shuttle that would grab a group of females and physically take them outside the wire to an adjacent camp. I was told these were SF running the shuttle, but I never verified. I will do that though.
This does happen. It will continue to happen. Your focus should be the mission and not your boyfriend/girlfriend in the next squad.
Whether or not she is equal to or better than her male counterparts is irrelevant. The plain and simple truth is, it's a female in a sea of males. She will be looked upon as different. To be quite frank it is out of uniform.
The gender lines will always be there as long as there is a dual standard.
The dual standard I was referring to is what distinctively make someone male or female and the problems that come with coupling in a mixed gender unit.
If you want to get a tab, go get it. I couldn't care less. It's a very big accomplishment to earn it.
There is enough of the sex and dating and high-school bs that goes on when not deployed, it gets worse during. Infidelity, hurt feelings, resentment, and people not doing their jobs because they are otherwise concerned with matters of the opposite sex.
Again, go earn your tab. But 1 or 2 females in an otherwise all male unit is a big problem.
It's bad deal when you have Joe's from other unit stalking around your AO because you have females.
We actually had a shuttle that would grab a group of females and physically take them outside the wire to an adjacent camp. I was told these were SF running the shuttle, but I never verified. I will do that though.
This does happen. It will continue to happen. Your focus should be the mission and not your boyfriend/girlfriend in the next squad.
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CPT (Join to see)
I was trying to figure out what you were referring to but one of your issues is sex and dating? You do realize people are hardly eating and exerting too much energy that if you're thinking about sex you're probably not doing ranger school right.
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SPC Kortney Kistler
I am not talking about the school. I am talking about mixed combat units. I couldn't care less if they let females into Ranger school.
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I think that there just needs to be the female side to these specialties. Statistically females are better shooters. Not employing them in the Rangers or other special forces positions in other branches may be denying the nation the protection it deserves. Maybe they can be trained in a non co-ed environment so the males don't get distracted!
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SSG Andrew Neeb
Maybe they already are; however, tactically it wouldn't make sense to publisize it and show our hand to the enemy.
Officers just need to know who to talk to. Enlisted should reclass to PSYOPS or CA and try to get attached to a Special Forces ODA in country for some Op time, the more the merrier. If you are bad ass enough you just might get noticed. That is the hard part, they only want the best of the best of the best of the best if you get what I mean. These jobs are usually invite only.
Officers just need to know who to talk to. Enlisted should reclass to PSYOPS or CA and try to get attached to a Special Forces ODA in country for some Op time, the more the merrier. If you are bad ass enough you just might get noticed. That is the hard part, they only want the best of the best of the best of the best if you get what I mean. These jobs are usually invite only.
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1SG David Lopez
A dude driving a hearse! LMAO. In CDCR where I work, we have males and females as Officers. Not a once, have I ever seen that statistically women are better shooters than men. Why do people even say that. They msut have a bad lot of female Officers in the CDCR, cause honestly, that is where most of our problem children are. Are you saying that One woman somewhere is better than all and every men at shooting; or are you saying that acroos the board comparitively speaking, women are better shooters than men? Cause I do not see the second choice as any where near the truth. Just my view and first hand knowledge from military and post military.
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SPC Luis Mendez
Brenda, Where did you find those "statistics"? Are you thinking of Annie Oakley? Have you tried with an M-14?
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Honestly I think they don't look pretty. Their demeanor is kind of "manly", not exactly a pretty or elegant thing for a woman not to look Feminine. I can tell by the photos something "different", affected in the facial expression and skin, it does not look "soft" like almost all women. Is kind of goofy to say the least, I could say worst.
I think they may be getting a "Pass" at any and all costs or that they've received additional previous training. I also think that they're allow to take "supplements" even Steroids or so. This whole "Experiment" like so many others with Military people, is not going to Explode until a few years from now. Even worst, life experiences tells us that some men, down or up the line, are going to demand "something" from them in exchange for the "Pass", if you all know what I mean.
Maybe a decade from now, when these women enter into their late 30's early 40's, and Menopause begins it won't look well for them. This women need to be medically followed-up to see what will be the end results in their overall health, including reproductive and child bearing capabilities, etc. etc. Hope they won't regret it all or suffer in their health. I'm sure a VA compensation will take care of that also. BTW to all who read this and disagree; Pardon me for NOT being a Politically Correct, Left winger, Patronizing Liberal Male. Is because I pay too much Taxes due in part to Military Spending and Experimentalism like this one charade.
I think they may be getting a "Pass" at any and all costs or that they've received additional previous training. I also think that they're allow to take "supplements" even Steroids or so. This whole "Experiment" like so many others with Military people, is not going to Explode until a few years from now. Even worst, life experiences tells us that some men, down or up the line, are going to demand "something" from them in exchange for the "Pass", if you all know what I mean.
Maybe a decade from now, when these women enter into their late 30's early 40's, and Menopause begins it won't look well for them. This women need to be medically followed-up to see what will be the end results in their overall health, including reproductive and child bearing capabilities, etc. etc. Hope they won't regret it all or suffer in their health. I'm sure a VA compensation will take care of that also. BTW to all who read this and disagree; Pardon me for NOT being a Politically Correct, Left winger, Patronizing Liberal Male. Is because I pay too much Taxes due in part to Military Spending and Experimentalism like this one charade.
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CSM Charles Hayden Passed 7/29/2025
SPC Luis Mendez, Appearance doesn't count. Job performance does. Please do not even think of those females suffering reproduction problems related to Ranger School!
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SSG Gene Carroll SR.
I agree, looks aren't everything. How ma men took steroids in their life time to muscle bond to carry the load.
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SPC Luis Mendez
TSgt Hunter Logan - Looks could be worst after a REAL fight even if they survive. Clearly you didn't understand the implications of what I said overall. How about just stick to the points I made? How about presenting a Coherent refutation with FACTS not just subjective appeals, a straw-man and AD-Hominem argument? And don't forget that we already have a very small military by comparison with previous ones and as a percent of the population.
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Sounds like the same crying and bitching about women being allowed to test for the EIB, a couple ladies in Korea just earned their EIB and even went true blue. If they can haul ass to the same standard, what's the issue with them going after their ranger tab? It's just a leadership course. Sure some chicks are getting prioritized right NOW to collect data and otherwise comply with DOD directive (orders are important right?) but after that they'll be in the pipeline for Ranger school same as any other non-infantry leg who wants to grab another one of y'alls boy scout merit badges to pretty up their uniforms with. Non-issue. If you can hang at the standard you should be good to roll.
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SSG Bill Butler
I down voted your comments as I found them to be patronizing. As a non-combat infantry vet who has earned your so called "merit badge" I find your comments in poor taste and not fitting a jr. non-commissioned officer. The EIB is a symbol of tradition for the U.S. Infantrymen that played a vital role in the defense of our nation past, present, future. Your attitude towards the EIB and Ranger Tab as something that you just get and wear like a merit badge degrades the honor, effort and sacrifice for earning the badge and bearing it with honor. As I was told when I graduated there are two kinds of Rangers, Tab wearers and Tab bearers. If you don't understand the difference you will fall in first category. The point of the earning an EIB or a Ranger Tab is not to pretty up your uniform as you state but to be the best soldier you can be.
In a recent discussion about this topic I said that if I was a female in the military and given the opportunity I would volunteer for the test class in Ranger School to try and prove myself to one of the best. The same reason I went when I was in. The Tab is just a piece of cloth signifying I graduated the school. It is what you do with the knowledge you learn at the school or the skills you have to earn your EIB that set you apart from other soldiers.
For you to imply the reason to get an EIB or go to Ranger School to pretty up a uniform takes away from the accomplishment of it. I doubt any of the women who are volunteering to be in the test class are doing it for the cloth, or to pretty their uniform. I would venture that they are doing to prove the are elite soldiers and to prove they are worthy as well.
Saying Ranger School is JUST a leadership school and calling an EIB a boy scout merit badge shows your lack of understanding of what these actually mean.
In a recent discussion about this topic I said that if I was a female in the military and given the opportunity I would volunteer for the test class in Ranger School to try and prove myself to one of the best. The same reason I went when I was in. The Tab is just a piece of cloth signifying I graduated the school. It is what you do with the knowledge you learn at the school or the skills you have to earn your EIB that set you apart from other soldiers.
For you to imply the reason to get an EIB or go to Ranger School to pretty up a uniform takes away from the accomplishment of it. I doubt any of the women who are volunteering to be in the test class are doing it for the cloth, or to pretty their uniform. I would venture that they are doing to prove the are elite soldiers and to prove they are worthy as well.
Saying Ranger School is JUST a leadership school and calling an EIB a boy scout merit badge shows your lack of understanding of what these actually mean.
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LCpl (Join to see)
Dislike it all you want, the Army's obsession with "flair" and lines to add to Evals and other "resume" items is well known and commonly made fun of even in the Army, with these schools and line items making one more competitive for promotion and thus the course more desirable. Ranger school, specifically for the tab (and not the scroll, which if of course another animal entirely) is listed and described as a leadership school BY THE ARMY, so I'm not sure why it's upsetting to call a spade a spade.
I've met plenty of people I wouldn't trust around my bird wearing the EIB and the Ranger tab, and I've met a lot of guys wearing both or either, or neither who are the salt of the earth, stand up individuals that you want near by when the fecal matter hits the impeller, but you know what? Pretty sure none of those people were the way they were because of completing the EIB test or going through Ranger school. Dislike having your traditions called as they are all you like, and how they appear to behave practically from an outsider's perspective but in practical experience, I just don't see the difference enough to massage any one's feelings over it.
I've met plenty of people I wouldn't trust around my bird wearing the EIB and the Ranger tab, and I've met a lot of guys wearing both or either, or neither who are the salt of the earth, stand up individuals that you want near by when the fecal matter hits the impeller, but you know what? Pretty sure none of those people were the way they were because of completing the EIB test or going through Ranger school. Dislike having your traditions called as they are all you like, and how they appear to behave practically from an outsider's perspective but in practical experience, I just don't see the difference enough to massage any one's feelings over it.
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MAJ Matthew Arnold
What's missing here is this debate is a consideration for the size of the Marine Corps and the size of the Army. The limited size and mission of the Marine Corps promotes better and more simple management of quality control, and hence no need for elite units. The large size and complex mission of the Army, complicates quality control and demands the establishment of elite units, and elite units with many different missions.
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