Posted on Feb 7, 2015
What do you "Honestly" think about women attending Ranger School?
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Myself and hundreds of other Retired Rangers are tired of all this nonsense of women attending Ranger School. Why is the Army leadership encouraging special preference to attend a premier infantry and leadership school. It is a hard journey for qualified Male Infantrymen to compete for and get an extremely limited slot to attend the Ranger Course. Many of Rangers had to prove themselves to be hardened Infantry Sergeants in order to even be considered to attend the local Pre-Ranger Course, before even thinking of attending The Ranger Course. Normally an Infantry Company and/or Battalion could only send "one" representative soldier to the Pre-Ranger Course (per course). Infantry Soldiers competed amongst each other to get that slot. The 21-day Pre-Ranger Course, was definitely tough as or tougher than Ranger School itself, was hell to get through. And even after passing, was not a guaranteed slot to attend The Ranger Course due to budget, deployment, and training issues for the unit (not the individual soldier). If you did not get the opportunity to attend The Ranger Course within six months, well it was a requirement to attend the local Division 21-day Pre-Ranger (assessment) Course again. Once again, the male soldier had to pass all standards in order to be recommended to attend The Ranger Course. The Ranger Course had the toughest standards. To begin day one of the Ranger Course, during the APFT, the Ranger Instructor (RI) would not allow you to pass the push up or sit up event the first time. Every Male Ranger Student failed the push up event and had to perform the push up event a second time (five to ten minutes later) to Standard! My first attempt at the push up event, we had to complete at least 62 push ups. The RI was counting, 59, 60, 61, 61, 61... and so on. We were warned that we could not stop during the two minute event or else we would be considered a failure at this event. So I kept knocking out the push ups and asked the RI what it was that I was doing wrong. He answered with, shut up Ranger and keep knocking them (push ups) out or you will fail. I kept my mouth shut and knocked out approximately 120 push ups. The RI failed me. I got back in line and had the same RI grade my push ups again about ten minutes later. 59, 60, 61, 61, 61, once again I asked what it was I was doing wrong while I cranked out those push ups, and once again the RI stated shut up Ranger and keep knocking them out or else you will fail. That was the first moments of Ranger School and every standard was just as tough. If you were just there to earn your Tab, you were surely going to drop out of the course. But if you were a fully prepared Infantry Stud with the attitude that you attended the Ranger Course to test yourself and understood that you were going to have to push beyond all personal limitations in order to merely make it through the relentless day of Ranger Training. The one thing I really appreciated about Ranger School is that the Standards were set so high, every Infantry Soldier knew it was the very best training and test that any soldier can volunteer for. When finished, with an average of one hour of sleep per day, moving with heavy (very heavy) loads about 10 to 25 kilometers per day, performing tactical maneuvers, and being graded in leadership positions. It was far more harsh than I ever expected, every bit the hardest single accomplishment as far as physical and mental exhaustion in a training environment is concerned. Even for the most hardened and gruesome Infantryman. Ranger School was no joke. I'm not thinking it is at all a place for females. There is no way possible to keep the standards the same. We were not taken back to the rear with the gear to shower when we smelled. That is what Infantrymen do. It is dirty and frankly stinky, to say the least. I eventually became an RI in the Desert Phase and then later in my career a Senior Ranger Instructor in the Mountain Phase. It was a humbling experience serving with top notch soldiers / world class athlete Rangers. To say the least it was an Honor serving with the Ranger Training Brigade and maintain the standards. Let us not lose that, the standards. Let us not add the nonsense of preferential treatment. The RI's were hard as nails but fair. Let us not give away the farm to break the glass ceiling. You will rarely hear any news of Rangers in action, it is a quiet professional tight knit unit that prides itself on operational security. I can see no way to not change the standards once women attend the Ranger Course. This course will become a political agenda which will cause the truly dedicated Ranger Instructors to lose their jobs as RI's as we once knew it. Is it too late to turn back? Let the nonsense begin, female issues, separate but same, political agenda, media scrutiny, RI unfairness, sexual harassment, preferential treatment, male students No-Go's due to (female) not performing to standards during patrols... The list can go on, just ask any RI that has served a full term as an Ranger Instructor. Let us not forget the original intent for this course is to train men to lead soldiers into combat. When we give these limited (Ranger School) slots to female soldiers/officers, then we take away from the Infantryman, the soldiers themselves, and the Infantry Units. Let us not take this away.
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Retired Ranger 1SG David D. Lopez
Paso Robles, CA
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 240
As you stated 1SG Lopez, not a good idea on a number of levels. The DC PC crowd strikes again.
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I say HOOAH! The best should be the best. If you have a hard time keeping up with them then you should try harder. I never met that standard. I respect ANYONE who has.
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So with only 19% (5 females) advancing to attempt the Ranger course, and given the historically high fail rate of that school, only 1 or 2 will get the tab. Could be more, but I doubt it.
If I am generous, and 4 get the tab, does that indicate success? Less than 10% of all the female candidates? Just to wear a look what I did patch? I don't understand why any female successes will not be put into the 75th RR. With these numbers, will there be a second try in the future?
I also found it interesting that no NCOs or enlisted made it.
If I am generous, and 4 get the tab, does that indicate success? Less than 10% of all the female candidates? Just to wear a look what I did patch? I don't understand why any female successes will not be put into the 75th RR. With these numbers, will there be a second try in the future?
I also found it interesting that no NCOs or enlisted made it.
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1SG David Lopez
Someone had mentioned it earlier, earning the Tab is just the beginning. Once you have it, people expect more from you, more than from the average soldier. The true task begins to be the best, be smart, train others, uphold the standards, do the right thing, be physically fit to a higher degree than any other soldier in your units, be tactically and technically profecient, be a leader, be approachable, be Super Human, Be a Ranger! Stand and deliver!
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1SG (Join to see)
I did not realize that about the 75th. I had always assumed that if one goes through the training, the resource would be utilized for at least one tour. I stand corrected
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MAJ David Vermillion
I agree with the Captain's statement from above about very few soldiers who earn the Ranger Tab serve in the 75th Ranger Regiment. I was in the 7th Special Forces at the time I went through Ranger School and my class was made up of mostly officers and a few enlisted. I wonder why that is so true, could it be that the 75th have their own school. I also believe that graduating from Ranger School is the beginning of leadership and other soldiers look to you for that trait.
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CPL Brendan Hayes
To be clear, I have never served in a Ranger Bn or attended Ranger school. As a result, those of you who have served in the 75th please correct me if I am incorrect.
Serving in a Ranger Bn does not mean that you have a tab, but if you don't have a tab you will not be in a leadership position within the Bn. In order to serve in a Ranger Bn, you need to: be airborne, have an infantry MOS (or MOS typically found in an infantry Bn), and have completed the RTB pre Ranger course (back in my day it was called RIP).
Serving in a Ranger Bn does not mean that you have a tab, but if you don't have a tab you will not be in a leadership position within the Bn. In order to serve in a Ranger Bn, you need to: be airborne, have an infantry MOS (or MOS typically found in an infantry Bn), and have completed the RTB pre Ranger course (back in my day it was called RIP).
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If women can get in via the same process as men, and I mean the EXACT same process, why not? The standards have to stay the same. The expectations for a Ranger School graduate are very high. The instant the bar lowers it should be addressed. I don't know what the future holds in this regard, but if I had to guess I would say that there will be women in most of the elite combat schools in the next 10-15 years. It seems like an inevitability.
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CPT (Join to see)
An issue with that mentality is that infantry 2LTs pretty much automatically get a slot to Ranger School (as they should!), but females do not have the option to branch Infantry. Life isn't perfectly fair. Isn't that why the Army is holding this whole experiment in the first place?!? I completely agree that the standards MUST stay the same. If I go, I want maximum suffering and to earn everything I get. Trust me, any female who has her hair cut like a male wants to see if she has what it takes. NO "gimmes!"
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1SG David Lopez
LOL, very very true SFC. I remember as a young RI, a Ranger Student had a twisted ankle, and the Doc (CPT) told me to get his body core temperature. There we were in the middle of the PB in broad day light, I told that Ranger Student to spread his cheeks, it sounded like velcro ripping apart. But we got his body core temperature....
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Cpl Brett Wagner
SFC Greg Kemp and everyone else here - I think pissing your self is about the easiest thing a Ranger will ever do. Hell if they would give me a Ranger patch for pissing myself I'd go do now. Might even shit myself to get one of those patches. Now SFC Kemp and 1SG Lopez please stop making sense. This is the new crazy ass America kinda like bizarro world for Superman. I just want to open my eyes and find out it has been a bad dream.
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If you are correct and the Army plans to put 60 women into the class how are they supporting the decision? Placing non qualified personnel in a program would be fraud, waste and abuse. Doesn't the government monitor that anymore? Sorry No free rides here Ladies!
Now if they earned their way in and can hang with the Big Dawgs I say game on...
Now if they earned their way in and can hang with the Big Dawgs I say game on...
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Mixed....
On the one hand, I believe we should question every belief, policy and method. We grow through change, we should seek better ways of doing stuff.
Should women be allowed to vote? Own property? Be lawyers, judges, cops, etc?
Black used to be slaves, and everyone was cool with it (minus the slaves, I guess). Now, they are judges, US President, etc etc.
Now, on the flip side, nit a fan of social experimentation. True equality will not always exist, and some bias always will.
Point being, we may need to change with the times, or, at least be open to the ideas...
In college, I presented an opinion in ROTC that the Citadel should remain all male...another cadet, wh I had been a student there, disagreed....and referenced one of our female cadets as being more hardcore than the guys who drop out of the Citadel.
Why don't we deny women admission to West Point because war is a man's thing?
On the one hand, I believe we should question every belief, policy and method. We grow through change, we should seek better ways of doing stuff.
Should women be allowed to vote? Own property? Be lawyers, judges, cops, etc?
Black used to be slaves, and everyone was cool with it (minus the slaves, I guess). Now, they are judges, US President, etc etc.
Now, on the flip side, nit a fan of social experimentation. True equality will not always exist, and some bias always will.
Point being, we may need to change with the times, or, at least be open to the ideas...
In college, I presented an opinion in ROTC that the Citadel should remain all male...another cadet, wh I had been a student there, disagreed....and referenced one of our female cadets as being more hardcore than the guys who drop out of the Citadel.
Why don't we deny women admission to West Point because war is a man's thing?
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19% qualify to gain a spot in the Ranger School, less than 50% will graduate.....so out of the 26 that started, roughly two graduate - and wont be assigned to the unit. From a pure question perspective, that is not a good graduation rate whatsoever.
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PV2 Abbott Shaull
Hey at least they got their chance to go through the course. That is all that we can do, passing is entirely up to them.
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Hey not a bad rate for the cycle class. What were you expecting 88%. Let's keep it realistic as we move forward with one Standard.
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CPT David Bernheim
"Stats are like bikinis. They show a lot but they don't show everything." Let's just see how this plays out in the April class.
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CPT David Bernheim
SGT Ryan Esquivel - You have evidence of that "70% Will Pass proclamation" somewhere? All five women in the first RTAC class and the one to pass the second RTAC class passed according to the RTAC standard. There has been no mention of creating a separate anything. The women were evaluated equally to the men.
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CPT David Bernheim
I had never heard your variant on stats/bikinis. Mine has been, "Stats are like bikinis. They show a lot but they don't show everything." Women being tested for RTAC/Ranger School has nothing to do with the CiC/POTUS. I don't think your statement is based on fact at all.
This serves the need of the Army, SGT. Ranger School was opened to the entire force, sans women in 2004 to spread the Warrior Ethos. After all that is written above and all that was written in 2004, 2005 when they opened Ranger School to all MOSs, my posting here will likely not change your mind. Regards to you, SGT.
This serves the need of the Army, SGT. Ranger School was opened to the entire force, sans women in 2004 to spread the Warrior Ethos. After all that is written above and all that was written in 2004, 2005 when they opened Ranger School to all MOSs, my posting here will likely not change your mind. Regards to you, SGT.
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SSG Gene Carroll SR.
We all ready have them, whats wrong with it. He's not changing genders. He's just in a medical just our corman
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Cpl Brad MarkW
Or how about a MAN being a TEACHER!! or a Beautician!!! Or, how about we pick a profession that doesn't already have men and women, and has a massive physical fitness and endurance requirement? I never saw a nurse, male or female strap on a 90 pound pack, wear 35 pounds of body armor and carry a rifle for 20 miles.
Truth is, it's just a school. If they want to attend a school like this and can pass the qual tests so be it. But they have to test on a level playing field. There can't be slots reserved for them like there was on this go around. That means they go against their male counterparts and if they earn a spot then fine. If they are given spots, in preference over another candidate due to their gender, then I have a problem. Ranger school is a long ways a way from nursing school.
Truth is, it's just a school. If they want to attend a school like this and can pass the qual tests so be it. But they have to test on a level playing field. There can't be slots reserved for them like there was on this go around. That means they go against their male counterparts and if they earn a spot then fine. If they are given spots, in preference over another candidate due to their gender, then I have a problem. Ranger school is a long ways a way from nursing school.
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