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In a few days, my unit (or 25% of my unit) are going to conduct annual training for three weeks. Being in school, obviously this interferes with my education. While I was trying to get out of it, this being my last semester and whatnot, they told me "him going to AT is contingent to being transferred". So I'm wanting opinions on what you think about this situation. I'll elaborate below.
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 14
Now, having said what I said, SGT (Join to see) , bring your laptop and books anyway, and do homework in the evenings as best you can. Load up on coffee to stay awake. You're an adult, so you do what you need to do in order to balance things as best you can. If anyone says anything to you, your response is "Well, command didn't want to work with me, so I'm doing what I can to adjust. I'm here, I'm doing my duty, so what I do with my down time is my own concern, and I'm using the time productively."
I, as a young SGT, used that sort of language when I was on active duty to justify to my at-the-time 1SG why I was in college and not out getting drunk with my fellow new NCOs....
I, as a young SGT, used that sort of language when I was on active duty to justify to my at-the-time 1SG why I was in college and not out getting drunk with my fellow new NCOs....
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Bobby Dibert
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My job conflicted with my annual training, and the commander pretty much bullied me into going anyway, and I got no sympathy, even though I'd already done two weeks of annual training.
I was given to understand in 2015 that my going to the MRT course was my annual training, and then at the last minute, I was put in for two more weeks, and I was switching positions at my civilian job. It was important for me to be there. When I tried to appeal to the commander based on an undue burden on my civilian job, he yelled at me and threatened my OER in a hallway in full view of everyone.
I caved, and didn't press the issue, went to the AT, and still got stuck on a data entry mission. Yes, you read that right, a data entry mission. A senior CW2 (at the time) with a Masters degree in Software Engineering, and all I was good for was data entry. When I pushed to try to automate it, since that would increase our productivity, I was told "that's not our job". I'm sorry, but I'm a Signal Chief Warrant Officer. I solve problems in my field. If you don't need me to solve problems, you don't need ME. That's when I started my IRR packet.
So yeah, don't expect anything like a timely commitment from your unit, but be prepared to jump when they say jump, on their timeline.
I was given to understand in 2015 that my going to the MRT course was my annual training, and then at the last minute, I was put in for two more weeks, and I was switching positions at my civilian job. It was important for me to be there. When I tried to appeal to the commander based on an undue burden on my civilian job, he yelled at me and threatened my OER in a hallway in full view of everyone.
I caved, and didn't press the issue, went to the AT, and still got stuck on a data entry mission. Yes, you read that right, a data entry mission. A senior CW2 (at the time) with a Masters degree in Software Engineering, and all I was good for was data entry. When I pushed to try to automate it, since that would increase our productivity, I was told "that's not our job". I'm sorry, but I'm a Signal Chief Warrant Officer. I solve problems in my field. If you don't need me to solve problems, you don't need ME. That's when I started my IRR packet.
So yeah, don't expect anything like a timely commitment from your unit, but be prepared to jump when they say jump, on their timeline.
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My 2 cents from dealing with this in the past.
You should have asked your commander months ago. Stated your situation that it's your last semester and I'm quite certain he/she would have been able to arrange an alternate AT date for you. Contrary to popular belief it isn't an easy thing to do. AT must be performed at a training location, your home station armory is not that, so they would need to coordinate you doing AT with another unit.
Also, professors are very understanding. If not your VA rep can help. I did many AT's with homework late at night in the TOC after my 1SG brought me in from the field or the range. One reason why I preferred online classes. I did have some resident and some classes that required a log in X times a week. I coordinated this all well in advance.
Do you use TA or GI Bill or are you doing a VA work study? If the answer to any of those is yes, then that is what's allowing you to go to school or paying a portion. You have to make right with the bill payer. AT is scheduled well before it's conducted and the AGO 40, or whatever document your state uses, lists all training events well in advance.
Probably not what you want to hear, but the hard right is just that, hard.
You should have asked your commander months ago. Stated your situation that it's your last semester and I'm quite certain he/she would have been able to arrange an alternate AT date for you. Contrary to popular belief it isn't an easy thing to do. AT must be performed at a training location, your home station armory is not that, so they would need to coordinate you doing AT with another unit.
Also, professors are very understanding. If not your VA rep can help. I did many AT's with homework late at night in the TOC after my 1SG brought me in from the field or the range. One reason why I preferred online classes. I did have some resident and some classes that required a log in X times a week. I coordinated this all well in advance.
Do you use TA or GI Bill or are you doing a VA work study? If the answer to any of those is yes, then that is what's allowing you to go to school or paying a portion. You have to make right with the bill payer. AT is scheduled well before it's conducted and the AGO 40, or whatever document your state uses, lists all training events well in advance.
Probably not what you want to hear, but the hard right is just that, hard.
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SGT (Join to see)
I definitely understand, although I did state that it was my last semester when this AT was first announced around November/December. I didn't get a definite yes until last drill, which was around three weeks ago. Even in January it wasn't 100% that many of us were going or not. Another reason for waiting is because my last class didn't start until late February so I was waiting to see what that instructor had to say. He did help by recommending letters to try and help my case in case I did take it to IG, so I asked my instructors to do that for me, another reason why it was so late. Anyways, thank you for your input MSG.
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SSG Paul Carrier
I have to disagree with the statement that AT must be at a training location and not at the unit armory.
As an M-day soldier I did AT both at the armory and other times at the adjacent CSMS shop.
As an AGR I set up AT for unit soldiers at both places and often had one working with my for their 15 days of AT.
As an M-day soldier I did AT both at the armory and other times at the adjacent CSMS shop.
As an AGR I set up AT for unit soldiers at both places and often had one working with my for their 15 days of AT.
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SGM Billy Herrington
It's usually state or MSC dependant. As a readiness NCO and a BDE ops NCO, it was a very rare and extenuating circumstance for a Soldier to do a homestation AT. AT is for collective training, not individual training, hence why hanging out at the armory and mopping or working on SSD isn't conducive to the training model.
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SGT (Join to see) Mission comes first. In my civilian career, I had to drop four masters degree courses because mission requirements came first.
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CW3 (Join to see)
And were you on active duty at the time? How much notice did you get for the mission requirements?
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Sgt (Join to see)
CW3 (Join to see) - I was not active duty. I started on the Space Shuttle program, three years before the first Space Shuttle flight and stayed until one month after the last Space Shuttle flight. New requirements and responsibilities, problems, covering for co-workers, etc., could occur at any time. My work hours would vary from working 45 - 50 hour weeks some times to 60 plus hours for extended times. Could I have not been as committed to the program, yes, but that is not who I am.
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CW3 (Join to see)
But was the program as committed to you as you were to it? That's my whole point. The same Army that will demand total commitment doesn't have a problem dropping you when they're done with you.
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Sgt (Join to see)
CW3 (Join to see) - I doubt that there are many civilian companies that are as committed as we might like. For me, the program ended when I was 62, and ready to retire. With the end of the Space Shuttle program, there was no need for Space Shuttle workers. The Space Shuttles were one of one a kind with very specialized skills. Many workers left before the end of the program, and retrained into oil and gas jobs in the Houston area. Was the program as committed to me as I was to it. maybe not. No one forced me to stay for 33 years. The program was something that I believed in and I am glad that I stayed until the end.
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I think it depends on the AT. If it's a CTC or big accreditation for the unit. I would expect a strict policy on skipping AT. If it's more an admin type AT it should be very lenient.
We have a Warfigher in October. So, I inform my soldiers in advance to see if possible to resolve conflicts. I try to be lenient when possible. If it's with civilian career training or school in final semester or in middle of finals. I will allow them to skip AT. The exception are those who are always submitting to get out of AT or drills.
We have a Warfigher in October. So, I inform my soldiers in advance to see if possible to resolve conflicts. I try to be lenient when possible. If it's with civilian career training or school in final semester or in middle of finals. I will allow them to skip AT. The exception are those who are always submitting to get out of AT or drills.
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With an entire career in the Reserve, I had many times there were conflicts. Remember the 6 "P"s. 95% of the time I made AT. The other times, with good warning ahead of time, I was able to do a different AT, but you got to make it clear to your leadership early enough. When I was working as a Professional Guide, there were times of the year (hunting season) I couldn't make drill, but I knew this ahead of time and worked it out. Some times I went to Montana and drilled with the Guard there, sometimes I was able to make it up. But the responsibility is upon you to plan ahead, get things worked out.
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Colleges and employers are required by law to allow you to attend military training without penalty or reprecussions.
You are required to inform your school about your military commitments (they are planned nearly a year in advance, after all) and coordinate with your professors how you will keep up with course work.
Your unit is required to give you "adequate notice" - subject to interpretation, but common view is no less than 90 days - so that you can make necessary arrangements with your employer and/or school.
So long as everyone is doing what they are supposed to do, there should rarely be an issue. Things like labs and residency are difficult to make up for, so a commander should be more flexible in those situations. In my experience, it is almost always the Soldier who knows that they have an AT requirement that waits until the last minute and then requests to get out of AT. Sorry, Hoss. Those AT taskers come printed on something called ORDERS, not Suggestions.
You are required to inform your school about your military commitments (they are planned nearly a year in advance, after all) and coordinate with your professors how you will keep up with course work.
Your unit is required to give you "adequate notice" - subject to interpretation, but common view is no less than 90 days - so that you can make necessary arrangements with your employer and/or school.
So long as everyone is doing what they are supposed to do, there should rarely be an issue. Things like labs and residency are difficult to make up for, so a commander should be more flexible in those situations. In my experience, it is almost always the Soldier who knows that they have an AT requirement that waits until the last minute and then requests to get out of AT. Sorry, Hoss. Those AT taskers come printed on something called ORDERS, not Suggestions.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Colleges are required by law? I'd like to see that law, because I was given to understand it protected us when dealing with civilian employment, not college.
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1SG (Join to see)
CW3 (Join to see) - Title 20 of the United States Code, section 1091c.
This section refers specifically to ADOS, CO-ADOS and ADT, but not AT or drill periods. For that, you have to defer to state laws, which vary from state to state.
My state (MN) requires the school to excuse the absence, make "reasonable allowances" for accommodating coursework and military requirements, and provides that no punitive actions happen for missed time do to Reserve or Guard obligations.
Not every state is the same, but most have something akin to this on the books.
I suppose I should have thrown the caveat "look up your state's law" in my response, but my underlying point is sound: plan ahead, communicate, and you will seldom have an issue.
A significant percentage of any college campus is serving Reserve Component Soldiers. It isn't like this hasn't come up before. It is when the Soldier doesn't do these things and thinks they are special when they get the gimlet eye from their leaders and profs.
This section refers specifically to ADOS, CO-ADOS and ADT, but not AT or drill periods. For that, you have to defer to state laws, which vary from state to state.
My state (MN) requires the school to excuse the absence, make "reasonable allowances" for accommodating coursework and military requirements, and provides that no punitive actions happen for missed time do to Reserve or Guard obligations.
Not every state is the same, but most have something akin to this on the books.
I suppose I should have thrown the caveat "look up your state's law" in my response, but my underlying point is sound: plan ahead, communicate, and you will seldom have an issue.
A significant percentage of any college campus is serving Reserve Component Soldiers. It isn't like this hasn't come up before. It is when the Soldier doesn't do these things and thinks they are special when they get the gimlet eye from their leaders and profs.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Thanks for the info, that's good to know.
And yes, 'plan ahead' is very good advice, but when those in authority above you withhold information or dish it out from an eyedropper, that makes it an order of magnitude harder.
And yes, 'plan ahead' is very good advice, but when those in authority above you withhold information or dish it out from an eyedropper, that makes it an order of magnitude harder.
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SGM Mikel Dawson
1SG (Join to see) Top, great post. The early notification, working with all parties, I never had a big problem. The problem comes when you wait too long, too late.
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My unit has AT in August of this year.......the first month of the new school year. I have several Soldiers that are in school. They are being required to attend AT.
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Your in the army you do as you are told. You can ask your COC but they can say no your going anyway.
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SGT (Join to see)
But as leaders, we need to put our soldiers needs as high priority and be able to work with them. Normally I won't make a fuss over this and I have done what I have told countless times in the 6 years I've been in without any fuss. This is the only time where I've had a big issue with anything, especially since the only reason for it is because of a dog and pony show.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - This is not the place to go to complain about you COC and how they are doing things that are not good for you. Oh and we do lots of dog and pony shows and they are very important.
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT (Join to see) - Also have you asked your school to work with you about your upcoming AT?
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SGM Mikel Dawson
SGT (Join to see) - When it comes down to the nitty gritty, you signed the dotted line. I missed lots during my career. Make your choice?
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