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You hear all the time 'you can add to, but not take away'. The question is actually to define this statement. Is the purpose to grammatically add to, but not take away? If so I can add a few specific words that would flip the reg on its head. Or is it add to in favor of the CoC? But in that case commands could do there word and get away with it. Maybe it's in favor of the SM? But then you breed...
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Regulation
Regulation
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 7
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A Commander (thanks SGM Erik Marquez ) can make a regulation more stringent (add to) but not take away (relieve people of obligation to follow it in part or in the whole of the regulation's spirit or letter).
There is a process to change regulations, doctrine, and other official publications by submitting a DA Form 2028. Same Form is also to change an MTOE or TDA (have fun storming the castle on that one).
There is a process to change regulations, doctrine, and other official publications by submitting a DA Form 2028. Same Form is also to change an MTOE or TDA (have fun storming the castle on that one).
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SFC (Join to see)
Rgr Sir, I am not looking at changing any specific regulation. I am just curious to see what comes from this post.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SFC (Join to see) - well, there is a way to have a reg changed, it is just not a slam dunk and it takes years. The consolidated comments from the field (via 2028 and other venues) are collected by the staff proponent for the reg. When it comes up for periodic review or a CSA or SMA directed review, the comments are presented, some analysis done, and proposed changes made. The proposed changes are then staffed with stakeholder staffs and selected MACOMs. Then it is integrated and published.
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LTC Jason Mackay
SFC (Join to see) - please see what I responded to with SSG (P) Unger. The add to part is within a Commander's authority, because of their responsibility to maintain discipline and steward resources. They do that through orders, policies, and SOP.
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A: Sergeant, you can not add anything.
B: Your commander can add to make a reg more restrictive, but can not relieve you of a reg requirement
Ar671.1_EM
Para 4.9
Sm may wear underwear on the outside of the ACU uniform if not in formation.
Commander Bob can ADD to that "Sm may wear underwear on the outside of the ACU uniform if not in formation, and inside their living quarters not in plain view of any fellow service member, DOD civilian, Federal employee, Dependant or small animals.
Commander BOB can not take away.. "Sm may wear underwear on the outside of the ACU uniform to include in formation"
B: Your commander can add to make a reg more restrictive, but can not relieve you of a reg requirement
Ar671.1_EM
Para 4.9
Sm may wear underwear on the outside of the ACU uniform if not in formation.
Commander Bob can ADD to that "Sm may wear underwear on the outside of the ACU uniform if not in formation, and inside their living quarters not in plain view of any fellow service member, DOD civilian, Federal employee, Dependant or small animals.
Commander BOB can not take away.. "Sm may wear underwear on the outside of the ACU uniform to include in formation"
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SGT McClure,
I don't think the term is meant to be applied to the regulations themselves, but serves as a guide for leader's when they are writing things like SOP's and Policy Letters. They have to be sure that in the application of such documents, the regulation is not violated, nor takes away from the purpose of the Reg (if that makes sense).
So, to answer your question, I don't think this guide applies to writing regulation, grammatically, but serves its purpose when writing policy.
I don't think the term is meant to be applied to the regulations themselves, but serves as a guide for leader's when they are writing things like SOP's and Policy Letters. They have to be sure that in the application of such documents, the regulation is not violated, nor takes away from the purpose of the Reg (if that makes sense).
So, to answer your question, I don't think this guide applies to writing regulation, grammatically, but serves its purpose when writing policy.
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SFC (Join to see)
Rgr SSG, in a perfect world that would be the best answer. But we live and operate amongst selfish and narrow-minded individuals that would burn the organization to the ground if it served them any benefit.
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SFC (Join to see)
And being that many of thouse kind of individuals are in leadership positions, how do the upcoming leaders define and develop this into possibly an actual regulation, or guide our organization in the morale direction it needs to go?
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LTC Jason Mackay
SFC (Join to see) - that all resides in AR600-20 under the responsibility of Commanders and their authority given them. The support channel and chain of command are both prescribed in 600-20.
I would also say that every commander, has a commander. Every senior, has a senior.
I would also say that every commander, has a commander. Every senior, has a senior.
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SFC (Join to see) to use another thing you hear all the time "at Commander's discretion". If it favors Soldiers ok, if it favors command or the mission ok. It is up to the Commander.
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Also a supplement can be added to a regulation from a lower level in the command structure but cannot change anything the original Regulation required, they can only add to its requirements. The printed supplement should be attached to the original printed regulation.
It is interesting one supplement I saw and used to an Air Force Regulation (Back before they were called Instructions) the AF Regulation had 15 Pages, the supplement from SAC, Strategic Air Command, had 86 pages. As I recall that was AFR 207-16 which perhaps some of You old AF Minuteman missile security troops may recall.
It is interesting one supplement I saw and used to an Air Force Regulation (Back before they were called Instructions) the AF Regulation had 15 Pages, the supplement from SAC, Strategic Air Command, had 86 pages. As I recall that was AFR 207-16 which perhaps some of You old AF Minuteman missile security troops may recall.
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'you can add to, but not take away' is nowhere to be found in any regulation. I have challenged people who have parroted that line to find the regulation that governs that military legend. Thus far, no one has shown me in black and white. Many have tried to use various regulations as a basis, coupled with lots of twisting and reinterpreting to support the phrase, but not so much.
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SFC (Join to see)
Rgr ssg, it's not really about the regulation but how to operate where the regulation no longer gives specific guidance.
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SFC (Join to see)
At that point, Commanders Authority comes into play. It is the commanders authority to interpret and define those grey areas that are not very well defined in the reg. If you feel that the commander's interpretation is not correct or goes against regulation, there are entities out there to do the checks and balances (IG, JAG). You should give them a call, they are usually very helpful with interpreting regulation and ensuring they are being followed correctly.
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SFC (Join to see)
I appreciate the direction SSG Shoemaker, but this is a devils advocate/ brain storming conversation. When it's all over it will be somewhat like the movie 'concussion', in defining a problem that has been kept in the dark. You always leave it better than you found it. And before I leave the military, I plan on making it better in more than one way.
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LTC Jason Mackay
You likely won't. It is the synthesis of What AR600-20 charges Commanders with as responsibilities to maintain good order and discipline. Their authority to issue orders, verbal and written is the way they discharge that responsibility. Note the mention of orders below and communication. Communication may be written or verbal.
2–1. Chain of command
a. The chain of command assists commanders at all levels to achieve their primary function of accomplishing the unit’s assigned mission while caring for personnel and property in their charge. A simple and direct chain of command facilitates the transmittal of orders from the highest to the lowest levels in a minimum of time and with the least chance of misinterpretation. The command channel extends upward in the same manner for matters requiring official commu- nication from subordinate to senior.
b. Commanders are responsible for everything their command does or fails to do. However, commanders subdivide responsibility and authority and assign portions of both to various subordinate commanders and staff members. In this way, a proper degree of responsibility becomes inherent in each command echelon. Commanders delegate sufficient authority to Soldiers in the chain of command to accomplish their assigned duties, and commanders may hold these Soldiers responsible for their actions. Commanders who assign responsibility and authority to their subordinates still retain the overall responsibility for the actions of their commands.
4–1. Military discipline
a. Military discipline is founded upon self-discipline, respect for properly constituted authority, and the embracing of the professional Army ethic with its supporting individual values. Military discipline will be developed by individual and group training to create a mental attitude resulting in proper conduct and prompt obedience to lawful military authority.
b. While military discipline is the result of effective training, it is affected by every feature of military life. It is manifested in individuals and units by cohesion, bonding, and a spirit of teamwork; by smartness of appearance and action; by cleanliness and maintenance of dress, equipment, and quarters; by deference to seniors and mutual respect between senior and subordinate personnel; by the prompt and willing execution of both the letter and the spirit of the legal orders of their lawful commanders; and by fairness, justice, and equity for all Soldiers, regardless of race, religion, color, gender, and national origin.
c. Commanders and other leaders will maintain discipline according to the policies of this chapter, applicable laws and regulations, and the orders of seniors.
4–2. Obedience to orders
All persons in the military Service are required to strictly obey and promptly execute the legal orders of their lawful seniors.
Something people forget, is that the NCO support channel exercises authority based on what the Commander delegates.
2–18. Noncommissioned officer support channel
a. The NCO support channel (leadership chain) parallels and complements the chain of command. It is a channel of communication and supervision from the command sergeant major (CSM) to first sergeant (1SG) and then to other NCOs and enlisted personnel of the units. Commanders will define responsibilities and authority of their NCOs to their staffs and subordinates. This NCO support channel will assist the chain of command in accomplishing the following....
So above establishes the need and requirement for commanders to issue orders. These orders are written or verbal. Part and parcel with that is to make more general directives. Commanders do that through policy. The authority and the obligation to publish commander's policy letters is directed by individual regulations and too numerous to count. As an example 600-20 directs commanders to establish an Open Door Policy. The necessity of the policy and the restriction it imposes is contingent on the problem observed, the causes, and external legal review. It is essential that all policy is fair, enforceable, based in regulation, needed to maintain order and discipline, and only imposes enough restriction to achieve the purpose. Enumerating the purpose of a policy letter is also imperative so that soldiers understand intent.
2–1. Chain of command
a. The chain of command assists commanders at all levels to achieve their primary function of accomplishing the unit’s assigned mission while caring for personnel and property in their charge. A simple and direct chain of command facilitates the transmittal of orders from the highest to the lowest levels in a minimum of time and with the least chance of misinterpretation. The command channel extends upward in the same manner for matters requiring official commu- nication from subordinate to senior.
b. Commanders are responsible for everything their command does or fails to do. However, commanders subdivide responsibility and authority and assign portions of both to various subordinate commanders and staff members. In this way, a proper degree of responsibility becomes inherent in each command echelon. Commanders delegate sufficient authority to Soldiers in the chain of command to accomplish their assigned duties, and commanders may hold these Soldiers responsible for their actions. Commanders who assign responsibility and authority to their subordinates still retain the overall responsibility for the actions of their commands.
4–1. Military discipline
a. Military discipline is founded upon self-discipline, respect for properly constituted authority, and the embracing of the professional Army ethic with its supporting individual values. Military discipline will be developed by individual and group training to create a mental attitude resulting in proper conduct and prompt obedience to lawful military authority.
b. While military discipline is the result of effective training, it is affected by every feature of military life. It is manifested in individuals and units by cohesion, bonding, and a spirit of teamwork; by smartness of appearance and action; by cleanliness and maintenance of dress, equipment, and quarters; by deference to seniors and mutual respect between senior and subordinate personnel; by the prompt and willing execution of both the letter and the spirit of the legal orders of their lawful commanders; and by fairness, justice, and equity for all Soldiers, regardless of race, religion, color, gender, and national origin.
c. Commanders and other leaders will maintain discipline according to the policies of this chapter, applicable laws and regulations, and the orders of seniors.
4–2. Obedience to orders
All persons in the military Service are required to strictly obey and promptly execute the legal orders of their lawful seniors.
Something people forget, is that the NCO support channel exercises authority based on what the Commander delegates.
2–18. Noncommissioned officer support channel
a. The NCO support channel (leadership chain) parallels and complements the chain of command. It is a channel of communication and supervision from the command sergeant major (CSM) to first sergeant (1SG) and then to other NCOs and enlisted personnel of the units. Commanders will define responsibilities and authority of their NCOs to their staffs and subordinates. This NCO support channel will assist the chain of command in accomplishing the following....
So above establishes the need and requirement for commanders to issue orders. These orders are written or verbal. Part and parcel with that is to make more general directives. Commanders do that through policy. The authority and the obligation to publish commander's policy letters is directed by individual regulations and too numerous to count. As an example 600-20 directs commanders to establish an Open Door Policy. The necessity of the policy and the restriction it imposes is contingent on the problem observed, the causes, and external legal review. It is essential that all policy is fair, enforceable, based in regulation, needed to maintain order and discipline, and only imposes enough restriction to achieve the purpose. Enumerating the purpose of a policy letter is also imperative so that soldiers understand intent.
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weak and entitled individuals that are unable to conduct themselves in war, and do nothing more than degrade and poison the organization.
Over all how do you feel the statement would benefit the organization the most and why?
Over all how do you feel the statement would benefit the organization the most and why?
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