Posted on Oct 31, 2014
COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
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Waterloo battle
This is a theoretical discussion. Numerous military theorists from Sun Tzu, to Clausewitz (who is horribly misquoted more often than any other), to Colin Gray and Andrew J. Bacevich, Jr. have wrestled with this concept. I have noted in my research that there seems an overwhelming human desire to "impose rules" on war and disgust with those who choose to fight war outside those established "norms."

My question then to you all is what is your own personal definition and or hypothesis concerning war and how would you develop a theory from that? Can you state which other military and political theorists influenced your thought process, if any?
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CW2 Joseph Evans
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"It is well that war is so terrible, otherwise we should grow too fond of it." ~ GEN Robert E. Lee

There is no reason for the gentrification of war but to disguise it as a noble profession that it is not. War, like all forms of violence, is for the purpose of power, control, and domination. That those who resort to it first are not those who are going to suffer on the front lines, make it even more abhorrent as the desperate act of bullies whose policies have failed. War is terrible, and it should be, and those who have not walked the trenches, should not be able to call for that last desperate act.
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COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
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According to Clausewitz there are two kinds of war, “in the sense that either the objective is to overthrow the enemy—to render him politically helpless or militarily impotent, thus forcing him to sign whatever peace we please; or merely to occupy some of his frontier-districts so that we can annex them or use them for bargaining at the peace negotiations.”

Total War is a termed coined by Guilio Duhet in the 1920s and approaches Clausewitz’s abstract concept of Absolute War in the sense that it allowed all means (including poison gas and incendiary weapons – most potent of his day) and all ways (with no distinction between combatants and non-combatants) for the unlimited objectives of overthrowing the enemy. The Civil War was not a total war, the First World War was nearer to it, and the Second World War was nearer still due to the unlimited bombing campaigns against civilian populations.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
CW2 Joseph Evans
11 y
Unfortunately Clausewitz had never been exposed to the proxy wars of the 20th Century where the largest of state players lacked the national or political will to effect "Absolute War" against our rivals, choosing instead to conduct it against proxy states in a manner that has yet to meet the "Just War" principles.
The long term effects of Operation Ranch Hand in Vietnam, the funding of the Mujaheddin in Afghanistan, US chemical weapons that supported the Iraq-Iran war. Even our involvement in Iraq since 2003 has generated more harm than good for the population and the stability of the community of Nations.
Since the end of WW II, the hawks have yet to make a successful call in declaring a just war.
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COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
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It is easy for us to armchair quarterback decision makers of the time with today's scientific knowledge and knowledge of the outcomes, but we have to put ourselves in their seats at that specific time and place with the ethics of their day....I would say we can debate the ethical decision of Operation Ranch Hand but at the time it was considered within "international law," funding the Mujaheddin was purely against the Soviets at the time with little thought of what that could eventually become and square in the midst of the Iranian hostage crisis so other things were seen as perhaps of higher priority, and have to state that US Chemical Weapons were NEVER used in the Iraq-Iran war- Iraq developed those against the Geneva convention and in violation of treaties that they had agreed to abide by which led to the distrust the US had over their programs years later.

Not sure anyone actually declares a just war, seems more that "fear honor and interests" (Thucydides) drive us into war that we then go back and apply Just War theory to the situation in an attempt to justify it.
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CW2 Joseph Evans
CW2 Joseph Evans
11 y
or condemn it.

I have no problem with the war as a means to preserve the American way of life, as long as we are actually preserving the American way of life. We are currently experiencing conditions in America, matters of ethics and morals in government, that endanger that dream on our own soil, yet we use the excuse that we are "exporting" our democracy, which is in direct violation of our own personal concepts of self-determination. At the end of the day, wars will be fought, won and lost, based not on the values for which we fought, but on the will and determination of young men, both good and evil, who fight for our cause. Whether our cause be just or not, only history will tell by the mark we leave on future generations.
If we lack the national will, the political will, and the educated policies to see war carried through to a just end, there is no just war. And there is only one that we came close to getting right, WW II, and that was because of the effective implementation of the Truman Doctrine and the Marshall Plan, after the effective use of absolute warfare.
Yes, I probably am doing a some armchair quarterbacking after 238+ years of American history, and I am probably getting it wrong on some level through the voicing of my opinion and limited knowledge, and over hearing way to many misquotes of Clausewitz out of context. But I do believe that if we are to go to war, decisive victory in combat is only a milestone in the ultimate goal of peace.
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SFC(P) Imagery Sergeant
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I've always viewed War as something like a school yard argument that turns into a fight. The principles are roughly the same, there are two individuals (countries or states) that don't agree on something and they start talking first about it (peaceful communications). That will slowly erode into arguing (sanctions), which will lead to pushing (launching weapons from the sea or air). This ultimately will lead to a fight (war), it follows along the same lines, just people who have more to throw around in the way of weapons.

Also as we all know, War is a nasty terrible thing.

It is also a way to solve problems and to end strife. The are many things that War has done that has been to the betterment of humanity on a whole, just like there are things that it has done to hurt and hinder people.
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MSgt Flight Chief, Operations
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I view war as a sponsored society or state that has determined it necessary to execute a change in behavior (actions/intentions/or influence) within another group. I believe war to encompass all powers of influence Diplomatic Informational Military Economic (DIME) and run full range of spectrum from small strategic actions to long actions of attrition. The reason to put rules on war is to minimize the time and resources required to return to a stabilized norm (needless loss of life/resources/infrastructure). With all that said it is about changing the behavior of another be it direct attacks to keep countries out of countries (ISIS does not want Western influence for their people) or to stop an action that a country takes (human atrocities/drug smuggling). Like the debates that we have with others but on a grander scale.
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COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
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Thank you MSgt (Join to see) how do you account for the use of violence as an integral part of "war" to accomplish the change in behavior since that can be done without violence?
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MSgt Flight Chief, Operations
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Violence is an option to influence war. Sometimes it is the threat of violence (North Korea vs. South Korea) that can cause an outcome. Sometimes it is actual violence that is used to force the issue. However, the use of violence brings in different concerns (based on your philosophy). If you go to a full war (non-small scale strategic strike) you must go through phase 4 stabilization and phase 5 redeployment. Phase 4 stabilization operations are affected on how much destruction/violence was utilized during phase 3 execution (dominate) of war. If your troops brought more violence and destruction than necessary to bring about change, the populace can be resentful and more willing to turn to an insurgency. If you cannot conduct your self in a manner that affects change through phase 3 (to include diplomatic/informational manner) you could lose the legitimacy of war not only on the populace you are trying to influence change but also within your own people or other nation states. This is why I have to believe that the leaders above me have calculated the amount of force necessary to affect an outcome. An example of this is regardless of outcome a cop that shoots an unarmed suspect will always lose some form of legitimacy even if act is justified because the populace views unarmed shootings as wrong.
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What is War?
CW5 Desk Officer
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Edited 11 y ago
Ma'am, here's a definition of war from the dictionary:

"a state of armed conflict between different nations or states or different groups within a nation or state"

I think of the wars we've been involved in. This definition certainly applies to our Revolutionary War, our Civil War, WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

President Bush declared a "global war on terrorism (GWOT)," which also fits the definition.

And the latest "war" against ISIS/ISIL fits as well.

It seems to me that anytime we confront an adversary who wants to do our country or our way of life harm, and we decide to fight back, that's a war.

Heck, there's even a war on drugs, and that fits my definition of war as well. The drug suppliers, dealers, etc., want to do us harm, so fighting back against them could be defined as a war.

I don't have any deep military thinkers to quote, just common sense, coupled with a sense of survival for our country and our culture.
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COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
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Thank you CW5 (Join to see) I am struck by the dictionary definition use of "state". What defines a state or a group within a state? After a series of devastating wars and to end the 30 years war of Europe in 1600s the congress at Westphalia the concept of Westphalian sovereignty was created. This concept affects how we think today about a nation's "right" to self determination and (in my opinion) why we (as Western nations) are so fascinated with enforcing established boundaries between current countries. In that sense ISIS/ISIL is "outside" of sovereignty as an external force bound by ideology rather than nationality and perhaps why NATO and America and allies are struggling with how to wage (or whether to wage) war against them.
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SFC Chemical Biological Radiological and Nuclear Operations Specialist
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An organized effort by a government or other large organization to stop or defeat something that is viewed as dangerous or bad.
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SPC David S.
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To me it is the absence of reasoning in resolving conflicting thoughts. We as intelligent rational beings know the course that war will lead us on yet persuade ourselves that war is the necessary action that will align these divergent thoughts. War does not change the way one thinks however it is merely a physical action that results in the subjugation of a group under another group. This is were I feel war betrays us as it does nothing to change the thought that lead to war in the first place. That's where I think the Romans succeeding in their strategy in creating their empire. They conquered but rebuilt and raised the standard of living. I like the thinking of Carl von Clausewitz and he goes beyond the causes and looks into human nature and the teleology of war.
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SFC James Schroeder
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Ma'am,

While I tend to agree with Clausewitz's assessment regarding war being a continuation of policy by other means, I think he both goes too far and not far enough in his assessment. He goes too far in that he stays too general in his statement on policy; he does not go far enough in that he limited his assessment to armed conflict.

My hypothesis is that war is specifically the continuation of any policy involving the establishment of control of a group outside the normal sphere of influence of a given nation-state by other means. That control does not necessarily require physical violence between the aggressor and the target, but such physical violence between target and aggressor is a usual end result of such conflict. Specifically on the less violent side, one can conceivably foment unrest within the target group or country without actually engaging personnel from the aggressor nation-state. Modern war could conceivably rage in cyberspace long before a single shot is fired; indeed, should one (or more) side(s) fail to sufficiently secure their infrastructure, such a conflict may do considerable economic and even physical damage without attribution to the aggressor and with far fewer national (or organizational) resources required than full spectrum warfare would require.

Regardless, the differentiation between war and skirmish lies primarily in the concerted attempt by one side to gain control over the actions of the other. This is why I have never seen much use in the "War on Drugs", the "War on Poverty", or the "War on Terrorism" - war, using the full weight of a nation-state's capacity to force compliance of the opposing force, against an abuse problem, an economic status, and a tactic respectively has little to do with an identified target group or nation-state. They are, by their own definition, not capable of being "won" in any traditional sense of the word. There is no group, organization, or nation-state over whom control is sought.

As to how I would develop a theory based on my hypothesis... I am afraid that would take much more research than I have devoted to the topic at this point. From my limited studies on war in general and my own personal observations, my first target would be to better develop a hypothesis on the impetus to action against another group or nation-state. I'm heavily influenced by Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, and Lao Tzu (I realize he isn't normally considered a military theorist, but Tao Te Ching actually flows well with certain schools of thought), as well as my own experience.

Oh, and as to the overwhelming urge to impose rules on war... that seems to have more to do with the difficulty of using the spoils when such rules were never implemented than any specific revulsion of the acts themselves during actual conflict. In the event no such requirement exists and the aggressor has no need to mop up afterwards, as it were, then I suspect there would be little urge to follow those existing rules.

Just my two cents Ma'am. Outstanding question - thank you for posing it!
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COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
COL (Join to see)
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SFC James Schroeder thank you for a very thoughtful and thought provoking answer. As we know Clausewitz was writing for his time but attempting to identify truths that held true throughout time so he could not even conceive of where we are today. I have not read any of Lao Tzu so appreciate the reference. Agree with you completely about the misuse of the term for political purposes and most likely by individuals who have never been involved in a military one.
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MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca
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IMHO. War is a state of mind and political posture that is taken by a sovereign entity (person, group, culture, society, country, etc.) when that entity, based on its definition of rationality, established morals, code of laws and political infrastructure, feels that it has exhausted all less than violent, civilized (ethical and unethical) efforts to influence its will and desire over another entity. War becomes the forceful, most likely violent attempt of a sovereign entity to establish its will and desire over and conquer the unwilling entity though actions that push to the extreme and/or violate the sovereign entity's rationality, established morals and code of laws.
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Capt Richard I P.
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a racket.
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Capt Richard I P.
Capt Richard I P.
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That was meant as a bit of humor tinged with a very serious reference to MGen Smedley Butler's work on the topic, well worth reading. http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf
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COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
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Capt Richard I P. Thank you for the reference and information on MGen Smedley. I had not read it before but was very apropos in studying the military buildup between WWI and WWII and in my own studies of the industrial complex today.
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COL Doctoral Candidate In Emergency Management
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The trick to reading Clausewitz is to understand that he wrote in the manner of argument of the day - Hegalian dialect

He stated a thesis, then argues the anti-thesis (the opposite point of view), then combines the two into something new (synthesis)

Thus he can be misquoted because the thesis and anti-thesis are not what he was truly reasoning yet generally you find where folks pick and choose out of the two to argue their points.
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