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I am a CH-47 Flight Engineer Instructor at Ft. Rucker, AL that works for Flight School XXI. I've been a crewmember on Chinooks since 2003 with the 101st, 2 ID and 10th MTN. One common thread I have noted in offline discussions with other servicemembers, regardless of branch of service, whether inside or outside Army Aviation is that my fellow crewmembers have been viewed as lazy and unprofessional. I will not deny that sometimes this is exactly the case, but generally speaking it is not. This question is an effort to promote understanding, end some stigmas, and overall improve not only the quality of crewmembers, but also the quality of dealings between aircrews and supported units.
Army
Aviation
Lessons Learned
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 22
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SSG Utter; I wouldn't worry about it. First of all, the infantry thinks everyone is lazy. Then the cavalry thinks that everyone but them and the infantry are lazy, including the heavy armor units, but the infantry are snobs because they think the CAV is lazy. Then the armor guys think that everyone except the infantry and the CAV are lazy but that the infantry and the CAV are arrogant bastards because they think the armor guys are lazy and eat donuts all the time. Keep on rolling this downhill until you get to the Aviation and the air crews themselves. The bottom line is that when the big-3: Infantry, Armor/Cavalry, and Field Artillery see you guys, they see you fly in (generally not a hard job), hop out, give some instructions, unwind the cord attached to your head so you don't get sucked up into the blades while you are telling us what to do and which side of the aircraft to approach from, watch us load the stuff and then help us tie it down...then you smoke and joke with the pilots and wait until someone has to go to the bathroom before you close everything up and take off. THEN...we get dropped off somewhere to do more killin...and you guys fly off. Now there is a LOT of sarcasm in there, but if you asked a "Joe" to sum it up, there you go. The bottom line is that no one sees all of the other things you do to make sure that that single, extremely valuable piece of equipment is fully operational and able to do what it is supposed to be doing when the Army needs it the most...and they never will...and most will never care. In this profession, you have to be happy and confident that your part of the machine works perfectly...every time...all the time. If someone doesn't say, "That's the shiniest diamond I have ever seen...is it any less shiny? No...just be shiny...and don't worry if people don't say so.
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CMSgt James Nolan
COL (Join to see) Very well stated there sir. Had me rolling (and to be clear, we all know that aircrew is lazy-bwahahahaha) Unless they are hooking us up with a ride, then they rule. Too funny.
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SGT Richard H.
You got that right, Sir! Everyone is lazy except the Infantry....and I'm not really even all that sure that we aren't.
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In early 2003, we were in the Sunni Triangle and water was VERY hard to get. Everyone saved their piss bottles so we could have something to clean windscreens for the pilots. Those !@#$ dust storms every day would try to bury the acft and keep us grounded yet despite 120+*, mortars, rockets, ASP's blowing up left and right, and every bonehead with an AK and RPG, NOTHING wouldn't stop our crews from making mission to take care of our Tanks and Bradleys from 2/3 ACR. I have NEVER I repeat EVER had anything but praise for my crewchiefs. Their dedication and hard work brought tears to my eyes on a daily basis. I am sorry if any of you senior leaders ever felt otherwise. Pride in ownership? Our crewchiefs DEFINED pride in ownership.
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I am/was Infantry and served in several positions within Infantry Divisions. I do not ever recall any of us having nothing but respect for Aircrews. Jealous maybe, but not ever disrespected by me and my cohorts.
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I suppose both laziness and unprofessional standards come from your point of view when looking at crew members. Both rated and non-rated. You came into aviation just prior to transformation so you may not know much about the way it was before that but in my opinion that is where a lot of things changed in Army Aviation. Due to flying more hours with fewer aircraft and crews the FE and CE now are flying more and working on the aircraft less which gives the impression to many as laziness. The aircraft have suffered because there is no pride in ownership since you don't crew the aircraft you own, if you even own one anymore. I saw it before I retired and still see it today. I could probably go on for pages but that's my .02 cents on the issue.
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SGT (Join to see)
I really wish the old way would come back, just so we could personalize and really ensure the care was received the way it was intended to be.
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I think alot of aircrew are viewed as lazy...its just a different world in aviation. Its not just the Army.
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SSG Utter,
I was in the Sugarbears from 2000 to 2003. I am a 15D by trade, so I work in the back shops. While I totally disagree with the lazy part, I only half heartedly disagree with the unprofessional part. I have been in Blackhawk units, Chinook units, and Apache units. There is a GREAT deal of indiscipline within the Aviation ranks. While in the Chinook Unit Crewchiefs, pilots, and NCO's all called each other by their first name. They said it was to instill crew integrity while on the Aircraft. Got it, but when it overflows outside the crew duties.. it's unprofessional. We avaition like to stand around with hands in pockets, have to constantly be told to get hair cuts. We push the limits it almost seems to see if we can set a new standard. I have been Army Aviation for 23 years now and it seems their is no change in sight. If we don't want to be viewed this way then we as NCO's need to fix the standard and start following it and enforcing it.
I was in the Sugarbears from 2000 to 2003. I am a 15D by trade, so I work in the back shops. While I totally disagree with the lazy part, I only half heartedly disagree with the unprofessional part. I have been in Blackhawk units, Chinook units, and Apache units. There is a GREAT deal of indiscipline within the Aviation ranks. While in the Chinook Unit Crewchiefs, pilots, and NCO's all called each other by their first name. They said it was to instill crew integrity while on the Aircraft. Got it, but when it overflows outside the crew duties.. it's unprofessional. We avaition like to stand around with hands in pockets, have to constantly be told to get hair cuts. We push the limits it almost seems to see if we can set a new standard. I have been Army Aviation for 23 years now and it seems their is no change in sight. If we don't want to be viewed this way then we as NCO's need to fix the standard and start following it and enforcing it.
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SGT (Join to see)
1SG-being a Prop guy myself, back shops is ALWAYS seen as lazy, unless you were in a line unit. As we all know, its feast or famine in aviation. I preferred the heavy maintenance side (Phase inspections at the like), because it gave me a chance to do things the way I wanted them done and didn't have PC breathing down my neck to get it done. Then, when I found something (ie, a MR lower bearing was corroded to hell), the crew chief was very accommodating, even with the 1.5 million dollar bill he was just handed to replace it.
I certainly can t change anything now, and as my time in the Army dwindles to a close, I can say this: there are definitely some good wrenches and mechanics out there. I am willing to see some things slide in favor of doing what we do best: keeping these things airborne and safe as can be. If we can't do it now when things are in austere conditions (garrison environment), why the hell are going to expect perfection downrange when there are WAY more important things that need to be worried about?
This is just playing Devils Advocate-if I am making a private do the entire 500 HR phase on a M/R head on the Apache (done right, should take two days to take apart, another three for the inspections, a week to repair anything as necessary, and another day or so to put back together, plus QC, write ups, etc), and everything is going to be ready to go, I am certainly not going to ride the Private s ass to ensure his hair is being cut, or he looks sloppy while he/she is performing their work. My leadership style has always been mission first, people always. Get the mission done, then I will worry about Soldier stuff when its time and mission is complete. I don t want him to have to worry about a verbal counseling he s got coming...have them stay in the shop, and when they are done, pull them aside-"Go shower, shave, get a hair cut, and take the next 12 hours off or whatever". I need my guys focused.
I certainly can t change anything now, and as my time in the Army dwindles to a close, I can say this: there are definitely some good wrenches and mechanics out there. I am willing to see some things slide in favor of doing what we do best: keeping these things airborne and safe as can be. If we can't do it now when things are in austere conditions (garrison environment), why the hell are going to expect perfection downrange when there are WAY more important things that need to be worried about?
This is just playing Devils Advocate-if I am making a private do the entire 500 HR phase on a M/R head on the Apache (done right, should take two days to take apart, another three for the inspections, a week to repair anything as necessary, and another day or so to put back together, plus QC, write ups, etc), and everything is going to be ready to go, I am certainly not going to ride the Private s ass to ensure his hair is being cut, or he looks sloppy while he/she is performing their work. My leadership style has always been mission first, people always. Get the mission done, then I will worry about Soldier stuff when its time and mission is complete. I don t want him to have to worry about a verbal counseling he s got coming...have them stay in the shop, and when they are done, pull them aside-"Go shower, shave, get a hair cut, and take the next 12 hours off or whatever". I need my guys focused.
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1SG (Join to see)
That in no way I stills the total army concept. I have been doing this for 24 years now and I have NEVER had to be told to get a hair cut. I make sure as a Soldier I follow the regulations, even if it means I have to get up 20 min early to accomplish that. You letting a Soldier slide on hygiene because he is a good mechanic is a total lack of leadership. That's why there is L3, Dynacorp, and URS, for those who can't live by the simplest of Army Standards.
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I am not lazy! I am just conserving my energy for when the S#!T hits the fan.
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Not a damn thing! Crewdogs work like slaves! They are dedicated to the point of volunteering to come in on crew rest/reset days.
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Ive been on British, Army, Marine Corps and Air Force piloted fixed and rotary wing assets in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ive never came across crew chiefs being lazy and unprofessional but I've see sometimes just frustration. I give it to the crew chiefs, being in a stupid hot environment, extrememly loud noises, fluids dripping on you, and having to move heavy gear on and off at the cyclic rate, I could see myself getting a little agitated.
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As a Long Range Surveillance Team Leader, I've had many opportunities to coordinate, and brief rotary wing aircrews on routes, and procedures. I have had nothing but positive experiences in doing so.
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