Posted on Jan 27, 2016
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
14.8K
148
241
9
9
0
23e99ebf
Posted in these groups: 6262122778 997339a086 z PoliticsImgres ConstitutionUs sitizenship Citizenship
Avatar feed
Responses: 41
Maj Bill Smith, Ph.D.
0
0
0
As recent article posted on the ARRA News Service by Rod Martin: "Slam Dunk: Who Says Ted Cruz is a Natural Born Citizen? George Washington and James Madison"
http://arkansasgopwing.blogspot.com/2016/02/slam-dunk-who-says-ted-cruz-is-natural.html
(0)
Comment
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
The Naturalization Act of 1790 was repealed and replaced five years later by the Naturalization Act of 1795. Both of these Acts discussed and created a rule of Naturalization which is a different class of citizenship compared to natural born citizen. A naturalized citizen arrives in the USA from a foreign nation and applies for citizenship. A NBC is born in the USA to citizen parents, according to numerous Supreme Court findings. (Did you notice the word parents is plural?) Of course, a wife took the nationality of her husband upon marriage, so the nationality of the father is really the only issue.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
0
0
0
Consider thes questions: At what time did anyone who was born on foreign soil (to at least one American parent) have to be naturalized? Once you've answered this what law states they have to do so?
(0)
Comment
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin - Draw your own conclusion from what the SCOTUS concluded, Major. If we are discussing Ted Cruz his father was a Cuban who married a US woman and they quickly moved to Canada. Rafael Cruz emigrated to Canada because he was creating a company that serviced the oilfield there. They lived there eight years. Ted's mother automatically emigrated into Canada after Rafael surpassed one year of citizenship in accordance to Canadian law. After four years in Canada little Teddy was born to Canadian parents. What do you think?
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
Here is a wonderful read of what the Supreme Court has found regarding a situation just like the one Ted Cruz is facing: http://www.thepostemail.com/2016/02/11/this-is-scary-president-cruz-would-not-constitutionally-be-subject-to-the-jurisdiction-of-the-united-states-of-america/
(0)
Reply
(0)
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
>1 y
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker - So what? I spent 13 years overseas because of the military. Does that make me less of a citizen?
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin - Of course not, Major. I'm sure you are 100% US Citizen. We are not talking about citizenship in the normal reference. We are talking about what, and why, the Founders did not want just a "citizen" to be POTUS. It is not a disparaging situation against mere citizens. From my study of the subject and Vattel's influence on the Founders of the Nation if your FATHER was not a citizen of the nation on the day of your birth, you may be a "citizen", but not a "natural born citizen." Mute point unless you aspire to be President.

Let's look at a marriage in the 1700's. When a man and woman married the wife instantly assimilated the nationality of her husband. She was no longer known by her maiden name, say Sally Smith. She was now referred to as Mrs. John Wilson; the name of her husband. If the husband was any type of US citizen, naturalized, natural born, or just citizen all of his children by his wife were born as natural born citizens.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
0
0
0
Here is a good rendition of what NBC means, written by another Constitutional Scholar. https://publiushuldah.wordpress.com/category/natural-born-citizen/

“Natural Born Citizen” and Coverture.

At the common law, Husband and wife were “one” and The Man was The One. The legal name of this concept is “coverture”.

Married women weren’t separate legal entities in their own right. Their legal identity was subsumed under their Husband’s. Married women weren’t “citizens” in their own right.

Vattel and our Framers had the FATHER in mind in their concept of “natural born citizen”: The Man is the one who counts!

Later on, with Married Womens’ Property Acts in various States, female suffrage with the 19th Amendment, etc., this legal fiction of the wife’s legal identity being subsumed into that of her husbands, was ended. [However, as a holdover, married women still sometimes refer to themselves as Mrs. John Smith instead of Mrs. Mary Smith.]

At the time of our Framing, coverture was in full force and effect. SO it was the FATHER’s citizenship which counted. That is the original intent. That intent remains until Art. II, Sec. 1, clause 5 is amended pursuant to Art. V. I propose an amendment saying that both the Mother and Father must be US Citizens at the time of their child’s birth for the child to be a “natural born citizen” within the meaning of Art. II, Sec. 1, clause 5.

So under the original intent of Art. II, Sec. 1, cl. 5 – which original intent continues until changed by amendment – IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO Barack Hussain Obama’s mother was, and it doesn’t matter WHO Ted Cruz’ mother is: Their fathers were not US citizens at the times they were born so THEY ARE NOT “natural born citizens”.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
PO1 Kenneth Cardwell
0
0
0
I believe its taken the wrong way by many. If you are a natural born citizen and your child is born outside the USA, then that child should also fall under natural born citizen. Maybe that mom or dad was working outside the USA, maybe they were in the Military like I was when my children were born when I was in japan. Should not be born in the USA!
(0)
Comment
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
According to natural law your nationality is inherited from your father. Where you first touched earth is not the issue.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
0
0
0
Edited >1 y ago
There were eight attempts to pass legislation in Congress to either modify or eliminate the requirement for the POTUS to be a natural born citizen between 2003 - 2008. That occurred just prior to a fellow named Obama arrived on the scene. Perhaps that is just a coincidence, but I doubt it.

1. On June 11, 2003 Democrat House member Vic Snyder [AR-2] introduced H.J.R 59 in the 108th Congress - “Constitutional Amendment - Makes a person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 35 years and who has been a resident within the United States for at least 14 years eligible to hold the office of President or Vice President.” – Co-Sponsors: Rep Conyers, John, Jr. [MI-14]; Rep Delahunt, William D. [MA-10]; Rep Frank, Barney [MA-4]; Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49]; Rep LaHood, Ray [IL-18]; Rep Shays, Christopher [CT-4].

2. On September 3, 2003, Rep. John Conyers [MI] introduced H.J.R. 67 – “Constitutional Amendment - Makes a person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years eligible to hold the office of President.” – Co-Sponsor Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27]

3. On February 25, 2004, Republican Senator Don Nickles [OK] attempted to counter the growing Democrat onslaught aimed at removing the natural-born citizen requirement for president in S.2128 - “Natural Born Citizen Act - Defines the constitutional term "natural born citizen," to establish eligibility for the Office of President” – also getting the definition of natural born citizen wrong. – Co-sponsors Sen Inhofe, James M. [OK]; Sen Landrieu, Mary L. [LA]

4. On September 15, 2004 – as Barack Obama was about to be introduced as the new messiah of the Democrat Party at the DNC convention, Rep Dana Rohrabacher [CA-46] introduced H.J.R. 104 – “Constitutional Amendment - Makes eligible for the Office of the President non-native born persons who have held U.S. citizenship for at least 20 years and who are otherwise eligible to hold such Office.” – No co-sponsors.

5. Again on January 4, 2005, Rep John Conyers [MI] introduced H.J.R. 2 to the 109th Congress – “Constitutional Amendment - Makes a person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 20 years eligible to hold the Office of President.”
– Co-Sponsor Rep Sherman, Brad [CA-27]

6. Rep Dana Rohrabacher [CA-46] tries again on February 1, 2005 in H.J.R. 15 – “Constitutional Amendment - Makes eligible for the Office of the President non-native born persons who have held U.S. citizenship for at least 20 years and who are otherwise eligible to hold such Office.” – No Co-Sponsor

7. On April 14, 2005, Rep Vic Snyder [AR-2] tries yet again with H.J.R. 42 – “Constitutional Amendment - Makes a person who has been a citizen of the United States for at least 35 years and who has been a resident within the United States for at least 14 years eligible to hold the office of President or Vice President.”
– Co-Sponsor Rep Shays, Christopher [CT-4]
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
0
0
0
How about we look at why the requirement to be a "natural born" citizen is paramount? The reason for this is to best ensure the loyalty of the individual aspiring to be our President. It suggests that someone who is born a citizen and remains a citizen throughout their lives will more likely remain loyal to this country. It also avoids "carpet bagging".

Personally I think we're getting too caught up with the perceptions of the words vs. the intent of the law. Is there any reason why McCain or Cruz should be considered less loyal to the US and more loyal to Panama/Canada respectively? What about another individual who was born to US parents, in a US state but spent their life since then in another country? If you're answer here is let the voter decide, regardless of how long the individual spent outside the US, shouldn't we say the same for those who were born as US citizens in another country? What about those who are born in international waters?

I am all for adhering to the Constitution, but I am not convinced the founders meant to have the requirement for President to be strictly afforded to those who were physically born here, regardless of the fact they had American parents.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
>1 y
LTC Paul Labrador - Please re-read what I said. "...will more likely remain loyal to this country". I did not speak definitively nor did I say naturalized citizens are automatically less loyal. However, I do believe the intention of the law was to strive for the highest level of loyalty by restricting the eligibility to those who who have been US citizens their entire lives since birth. Like any rule, there are plenty of examples of contradictions where people who can prove to be more loyal than natural born citizens. I would argue that in today's world, there are many more who are torn between their loyalties of their native countries.

Cpl Mark McMiller - President Obama was born in the US to a US mother. He is an natural born citizen. don't start a "birther" argument with me, as you will never change my position on this. Cruz was born to an American citizen which by the standards of the 1940 Nationality Act states he is a citizen by birth and thus a natural born citizen. McCain was born to American parents on a military installation on foreign soil. I myself was a few months away from being born on foreign soil but to American parents. Tell me what the difference would be had I been born in another country while my own American parents were overseas? I, like Sen Cruz, would have been naturally born an American citizen.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Cpl Mark McMiller
Cpl Mark McMiller
>1 y
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin You are wrong. A citizen is not the same thing as a natural born citizen. In order to be a natural born citizen, both of your parents must be citizens. All you have to do is research the history and you'll see I'm right. Barring that, all it takes to see the fallacy of your argument is some common sense: Ask yourself why our Constitution makes a distinction between a citizen being eligible for Congress but only a natural born citizen being eligible for President. If you are correct that the qualification for a natural born citizen is one citizen parent, then what is the qualification for just a citizen?

Further, only Barack's mother was a U.S. citizen. One would think that alone would qualify Barack for citizenship even if he was born outside the U.S. until one takes a look at U.S. law regarding citizenship at the time he was born. The law specifically required that the mother had to have lived in the U.S. for ten years, five of which had to be after the age of 14. Since Barack's mother was only 18 at the time of his birth, Barack was ineligible for citizenship unless he was born in the U.S. Obama has never proved he was born in the U.S. He has never released a copy of his actual birth certificate. The form he did release is in computer font which had not been invented yet at the time of his birth and the form has been proven to be a forgery. His social security number is from Connecticut, a place he has never lived, which makes it impossible for him to have been legally issued it. He applied for and received foreign student aid to attend college. His biography says he was born in Kenya. His paternal grandmother, half brother, and half sister say he was born in Kenya. His paternal grandmother says she was in the birth room when Barack was born and that he was born on August 4, but his birth was not registered in Hawaii until August 8. There is a birth registration for a Barack Obama, Jr. in Kenya listing the mother as U.S. and the father as Kenyan. But, yea, we should just take his word for it that he's a U.S. citizen. Keep drinking the Kool-aid, Major.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
>1 y
Show me the law which states this specifically. I've done my research and I'm good with the legitimacy of Cruz, McCain, Rubio, and Obama. Congress allows for those who have been naturalized (i.e. foreigner who immigrated to America and became American Citizens. They do not get to be in charge of an entire branch of our government but they are still afforded the right to run for office in the House and Senate. There in lies the difference.

Moving on, Obama's mother never lost her citizenship and the UCLA Professor who first suggested the claim you have repeated, recanted the statement after rereading the law.

http://volokh.com/posts/ [login to see] .shtml

Sorry but you are the one who is wrong here. Again, I've heard and read all the crap on this subject and I am absolutely not an Obama fan, but I do not subscribe to this conspiracy theory. Even the Hawaiian newspaper reported the birth announcement at the time. Obama led a life of narcissism, always drumming up his own history to appear interesting or important. At times he obviously exaggerated and outright even lied about his life. But nothing has come out to definitively prove he was not born in Hawaii. Again, there is no sense in going back and forth with me on this one unless you have something new. He's a Natural Born US Citizen and at this stage of the game it's a moot point.
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
My references come from the US Supreme Court and the US Constitution. No Congressional Law can modify the Constitution; that requires a Constitutional Convention. You are entitled to your opinion just like everyone else. Have a nice day, Major.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Robert Webster
0
0
0
After adding some historically proper information to the discussion and checking the actual US Code in reference to US Nationality, US Citizenship, and some of the interesting combinations thereof; I find it interesting enough, that if you applied a common sense understanding of the two parts that are the true basis of what should be the legal foundation and understanding, I am amazed that people do not understand what a "natural born citizen" is.
The common sense conceptual understanding that a "natural born citizen" is one that is an US "national AND citizen" AT birth; which is defined in 8 USC Section 1401 (8 USC Chapter 12 Subchapter III Part I Section 1401). In addition for clarifications sake and using a common sense reading of the applicable section of the US Code that defines what a "Nationals but not citizens of the US at birth" is - Section 1408. The sections that throw everyone for a loop are the intervening sections between Sections 1401 and 1408.
(0)
Comment
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
The problem with trying to apply US Code to what the original meaning of the Constitution is that no mere Federal Law can modify the meaning, or wording, of the Constitution. To do that requires a Constitutional Convention.

According to Article V, Congress shall call a Convention for proposing Amendments, "on the application of the Legislatures of two thirds of the several States," meaning 34 state legislatures would have to submit similarly-worded applications calling for specific amendments or specifying the same type of amendments to be considered. Once an Article V Convention has proposed them, then the amendment or amendments would have to be ratified by three-fourths of the states (38 states) in order to become part of the Constitution.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Cpl Mark McMiller
0
0
0
For you to be a "natural born" US citizen, both of your parents must be US citizens. The reason the framers of our Constitution specifically stated that the President must be a natural born citizen versus just a citizen is because they wanted to minimize the potential for any President to have loyalties to another country, which they felt someone born of foreign parents potentially could have.
(0)
Comment
(0)
LTC Paul Labrador
LTC Paul Labrador
>1 y
Except nowadays we see that a lot of naturalized citizens take their civic duties and responsibilities far more seriously because they had to earn it than natural born citizens who frankly don't really care....
(2)
Reply
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
LTC Paul Labrador - To change this would require a Con Con; not easily done.
(1)
Reply
(0)
LTC Paul Labrador
LTC Paul Labrador
>1 y
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker - Agree, but just because it's "not easily done" doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. I understand that for practicality reasons why it won't happen, but practicality doesn't mean it's not an issue...
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
0
0
0
• On July 25, 1787, Founder John Jay recommended in a letter to members of the Constitutional Convention that the term “Natural Born Citizen” (synonymous with True Citizen) be placed in Article II as a requirement for the Office of President and Commander-in-Chief, stating that only a Natural Born Citizen of the United States would be eligible for high office. Members of the Constitutional Convention agreed, adding the condition to the document that would be ratified less than two months later.

• In September of 1787, the ratified U.S. Constitution included a Natural Law term Natural Born Citizen, synonymous with the term “True Citizen,” as a condition for access to the Oval Office, in Article II. You can also find in Article I, the enumerated power of Congress to enforce The Law of Nations, which means enforce all Rights under Natural Law as defined in The Law of Nations.

“As the society cannot exist and perpetuate itself otherwise than by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.”

“The country of the fathers is therefore that of the children; and these become true citizens merely by their tacit consent.”

“I say, that, in order to be of the country, it is necessary that a person be born of a father who is a citizen; for, if he is born there of a foreigner, it will be only the place of his birth, and not his country.”

“It is asked whether the children born of citizens in a foreign country are citizens? The laws have decided this question in several countries, and their regulations must be followed. (59) By the law of nature alone, children follow the condition of their fathers, and enter into all their rights (§ 212); the place of birth produces no change in this particular,” - Section 215 pertaining to children of citizens born abroad, which refers back to Section 212.
(0)
Comment
(0)
SSG Robert Webster
SSG Robert Webster
>1 y
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker - And the 14th Amendment blew that definition out of the water.
(0)
Reply
(0)
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
>1 y
SSG Robert Webster - The 14th Amendment simply discussed the "Naturalized" citizen, not the Natural Born Citizen. An NBC is a child born in the USA to parents who are citizens of the USA.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1SG James A. "Bud" Parker
0
0
0
Has anyone ever heard of a fellow named Vattel? Or, "Law of Nations" which is a law book he authored? The only definition of natural born citizen is to one familiar to the authors of the Constitution back in the late 1700s.
(0)
Comment
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close