Posted on Feb 22, 2014
What Is Your Definition Of A Leader? Is A Leader Someone Who Is Always A Subject Matter Expert In Their MOS?
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Not too long ago I was denied going to the E-5 board by my NCO (SGT). I have 2 years 7 months in the Army and 3 weeks before this conversation we had I was moved to her section. The last section I was in, my NCO was a SFC and he recommended that I get ready for the bored because he says I did great work and I have a lot of leadership potential and he was gonna sponsor me. I let my new NCO know all this information and she said she would talk to my previous NCO about it. He told her I was board ready and 80-85% NCO ready.
She denied me going to the board because she said that: 1. I have not had enough time to evaluate you and send you to a mock board. 2. I know your good at PT and you help out others soldiers, take college classes, and have completed A LOT of correspondence classes but a year of being in your MOS is not enough time to grasp this job and be able to teach it to others.
I let her know I have been to two soldier of the month boards and had held an NCOIC position in the SSO office for 5 1/2 months prior to being in her section. I also told her that while knowing my MOS very well is really important, I don't believe that what she sees as a lack of time in my MOS determines if I am ready to be an official leader in the Army.
I look at leadership as a process a person takes to motivate and guide others to achieve a common goal. When it comes to the Army I see leadership as the same while at the same time earning the respect and trust of your soldiers and letting them know that you will help them accomplish their goals as well.
I explained to her that while I was in AIT there were some E-4s and a few E-5s that were there with us getting their second MOS qualification and after the course most of the were immediately promoted to the next rank after returning to their units or PCS'ing. They did not know the job so what made them a leader?
Anyways, I was pretty disappointed at her decision and felt like she made it not because I don't know my job as well as she thinks an NCO should know it but more because she didn't trust my board skills and did not want to sponsor me because she felt I might make her look bad for being my sponsor. Just on a side note, she was promoted to E-5 at 2 1/2 years.
Do you feel she made a sound decision in this situation? If an E-7 tells you someone is ready would you go against that or tell that SFC to sponsor the person? Do you think that a short period of time in an MOS should disqualify you from being able to go to the board?
If you feel this was a good question please vote up my post and leave your honest opinions thanks! - SPC Gamble.
NCOs
Upcoming Leaders
Promotion Board
Edited 12 y ago
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 14
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SPC Gamble,
Your situation happens all too much. It may seem like a slight towards you but lets look at some points.
When an NCO takes a Soldier to the board the NCO is vouching for the Soldier and saying they are ready for the next step. It is hard to take a Soldier to the board when you haven't evaluated them yourself. Leaders want to ensure the Soldier is ready before their name goes across to the Company or Battalion Leadership.
Without personally knowing the SFC it is hard to judge their character and know if you were board ready. If the SFC felt you were board ready they could have easily made that happen prior to you leaving for your new section. If you weren't ready yet and that SFC sent you to a new section you should have been sat down and talked to about the fact that going to a new section under new Leadership can slow down the process.
Knowing your MOS is very important. You can be a Leader without knowing your MOS but you can be one hell of a Leader knowing your MOS. When I walk into a section for help I look for that SGT or even SSG to help me knowing that rank means they have been in their MOS and they have experience. Too many times I walk into a place and find that NCO only to be turned away to a SPC or PFC cause they are new or don't have the "system" down yet.
Here is what I suggest you do -
Ask for a sit down session with the NCO.
Discuss your desire to go to the promotion board.
Ask the NCO what goals have to be met in order for you to go to the promotion board. Write the goals down and explain to the NCO that you want to attack the goals as quick as possible so the NCO can evaluate your readiness. If you have done 2 SOM boards then a 3rd should be no problem. Go in there and knock it out of the ball park.
Ask the NCO what goals need to be obtained to learn your MOS. Each MOS has a skill level book that explains what each level should know for that MOS. Print our the 10 and 20 level tasks and get started on them. I am sure if you print them out and start completing the tasks you will show the NCO your desire and willingness to learn.
Just remember rank is not a race. If you are racing to get the next rank then I feel you are doing it for the wrong reasons. I have firmly believed if you do the best you can in your MOS and as a Leader the rank will follow.
I used to have the MOS book printed out for my Soldiers and a copy was in each counseling packet. I also had a memorandum in there that stated the Soldier would not go to the promotion board unless they were 90% complete in their current level and at least 50% complete in the next level. When I implemented this my Soldiers complained and thought this was wrong. I told them if they truly desired the next rank this was merely a roadmap and it was completely driven at their pace.
Fast forward 3 years later and all of those Soldiers commented that that system made them a subject matter expert in their MOS, prepared them for the next level before it came, put them heads and shoulders above their peers in terms of experience and knowledge and even they even used the same program for their Soldiers.
I encourage you to prove to the NCO that you are ready - hit a mock board then a SOM board. Learn your MOS - your current level and what is needed to be a 20 level. I am sure when you do these things you will find yourself in the promotion board soon. Good luck!
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SGT (Join to see)
Damn, that would be pretty good stuff if we had an MOS book! I will find out if we have anything like that at all tomorrow 1SG.
By the way, I was switched sections by the J2 SGM. He switched a lot of people around so they could get experiences in the different J2 sections during deployment. Some people got moved around every 3 months, some 6 months. It was the kind of thing where my sergeant was leaving an NCO meeting and SGM said "Gamble will be going to collection management tomorrow.
The times are a bit crazy right now 1SG. She is actually leaving to be a recruiter once everyone gets back from leave but, I will try and have this talk with her to at least set me up for success in my future section and with my future NCO.
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SFC (Join to see)
Most specialities have handbooks, the matter would be how updated they are with current expectations/skill sets.
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SGT (Join to see)
Thank You SSG Goicoechea! This will definitely help me out I will check it out as soon as I get into the office tomorrow! Thanks a lot take care.
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I'd never send someone to the board after only having them for less than a month. I do not know the whole situation but I have been put in that type of scenario a few times. Namely a soldier is going to a promotion board and their NCO is not available for whatever reason and it's a hey you type of thing where I or someone I knew had to take them. Its the same point your NCO had to deal with in a way, she does not know you or your potential.
Being a Non-Commissioned Officer is a hell of a lot more than just memorizing the creed or just knowing your job. You need to request that you help with some Sergeant Time Training, take over a few Soldiers from her and do their counseling. Show her you know how to train, how to lead, how to build a team and complete the mission using your own plans.
I admire the fact that you are hungry and requested the opportunity, I wish there were more Soldiers like you. A metric shit ton of them these days just think "Hey Sarge, I've been a SPC for a year now what's the deal can I get promoted?"
There are some that get promoted because their leaders failed to give them proper promotion counselings telling them WHY they were not being recommended to the board. Happens all the time, CSM or 1SG are like why is this individual not going to the board.
"Top/CSM they are not NCO material"
CSM/1SG - "Where are the counselings telling them why and explaining it"
"Uhh"
"Top/CSM they are not NCO material"
CSM/1SG - "Where are the counselings telling them why and explaining it"
"Uhh"
Yea they still go to the board and they still get picked up and they eventually become toxic leaders.
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SGT (Join to see)
Nail on the head sergeant. I really appreciate giving me your stance on the situation. I would find myself inbetween a rock and a hard place if I had to take an unfamiliar soldier to the board and put my credibility on the line.
When the time comes i'll be ready though, WLC next month btw!
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I feel to know alot about your MOS that is a must. But the person that says they know "everything" about there MOS is going to get someone hurt. There is always room to grow and to learn. There are Privates out there that know more about somethings that I don't, but there again I know things about my MOS that they don't. I have shown some things to SNCO's and a couple of officers and vice versa. To be a subject matter expert in my opinon, is knowing more than most!
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I wouldn't worry too much SPC Gamble, if you keep your nose to the grindstone, you will be fine. It took me 3.5 years to make E5 and I did fine. Just take this time to be completely ready when the time comes. MAX your APFT!!! Do all the correspondence you can, and study study study. Don't be afraid to actually read the DOCTRINE. At least read the ADPs, there all short and consise. AR 600-9 is like 30 pages long and ADP 6-22 is only 25 pages. Get IN the books.
Obtaining a reccomendation SHOULD be the hardest part about becoming promotable.
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SPC Gamble, You'll understand her point of view a bit better once you've been in that situation. I've been on both sides of this issue. I've gotten moved to a new section and had to prove myself, and had soldiers assigned to me to I've needed to evaluate. I didn't understand at the time why my new NCO needed time to evaluate me himself, which showed just how much I still needed to learn. Recommending a soldier to the board is an action that I feel has been and continues to be taken too lightly. Many leaders send soldiers to the board because they mistake the SM's performance at the current level as their potential for performing in the next higher rank. Personally, I make sure to give that soldier added responsibilities to see how they perform when in charge and under extra pressure. Don't butt heads with your NCO either. That's the quickest way not to get recommended. Good luck SPC Gamble.
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Honestly any good NCO would evaluate you first. Its pressure on the sponsor also, usually people don't see that. If you go to the board all jacked up, your NCO is gonna sound dumb saying"SFC xxxxxx told me he was squared away".
Its nothing bad, just prove yourself again.
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SGT (Join to see)
Thanks for your feedback again sergeant Maravi!
I hate to say it but it is true about the evaluation thing. It is like a friend asking you to get him hired where you are, knowing it can make or break your credibility and you have never known what your friend is capable of or if he is even reliable you have just heard from another good friend that he is a good worker. Hard to accept.
I feel that with the situation I was in though, I got the short end of the stick and rather then just send me to the board she could have in my honest opinion tried to set up a mock board as soon as possible and put me on the spot to see if I really was the soldier I am saying I am and if she can believe in the SFC who told her I was ready.
She kind of rubbed the SFC the wrong way when I told him I was not going to the board and she definitely made me feel like she didn't put a whole lot of though into her decision.
Funny thing is the SFC in now our NCOIC of the section we are in now and she is PCSing to do recruiting.
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SSG (Join to see)
being an NCO is more then just passing a board. When I am considering sending a Soldier to the promotion board they need to prove that they have the maturity, dedication, and responsibility to handle being an NCO otherwise I am not taking care of them or doing them any favor's. As far as if I had another NCO tell me this Soldier is ready for the board I would take that into consideration as I conduct my own evaluation of them. In recent times it may be the norm for Soldiers to get promoted within two to three years but trust me when I entered the army in 1999 seeing someone get promoted at 5 years was not uncommon it is more important to wait til you have all the skills you need for the next level so you can be effective in the next position then worrying about how long you have been in and basing your promotions on time in service.
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I would not take it too hard. A leader is someone that 1. Knows their job 2. Is able to guide those around them to accomplish a mission. I have no doubt that you are both. One of the problems I see is that in recent years, people moved into NCO/Leadership positions too soon. They have not developed some of the skills needed to effectively manage people. I realize that the stripes would be a great honor and the pay increase would be welcome, BUT accept that you have an additional year to practice your leadership skills in ever evolving situations so that when you DO have the responsibility, you are even more ready than you are now.
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I am sorry, that is really unfortunate. Let me tell you story that might help you though from my personal experience.
After a certain point you have to actually be counseled for why you aren't going to the promo board. I was an OPCON soldier belonging to 2 companies. An organic and an attached one. I was in a situation where my organic company really disliked me and counseled me on not going to the board due to "potential". The company I was attached to said I was ready. There was a power struggle here, I was really angry. I knew my job very well. Saved more lives while being shot at then my peers, decent with PT, etc.. etc..
My platoon sergeant (in my attached company) told me something I never forgot. "Potential" is not an excuse to deny or approve anything. Potential is subjective, not objective. There is no cup for you to pee in to calculate your potential, nor is there a scale you can stand on to tell you your potential. Start studying, your going next month.
I made my P status the following month, got promoted a month or 2 later. Then I got a hero of the battle award. My organic company was sure disappointed no one could get credit for my performance on their NCOER's.
Long story short, don't let this get you down. You have come to a hurtle. Jump over it, keep going. You will achieve your goals if you truly are a good soldier and you persevere. (Also I had been in just about 3 years at the time of this story)
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I'm a little late in the game on this one. I just stumbled by your post randomly, the title caught my eye, and the content intrigues me. I apologize if anything I say has already been said, I just want to throw my thoughts out there and I don't want to read through every comment. Let me start by saying that I have been in this same situation for myself twice, once for E-5 and again for E-6. (a Leader change at a bad time) Every leader is different, and their philosophy towards promotion potential reflect that. That SFC could have used his status in the Unit as a Senior leader to convince that SGT that your ready. However he described you as being 80-85% ready to be an NCO. 100% ready is what you want your Soldier to be before you send them to the Board. Now as for Mock Boards, there is no need to have any time to evaluate a Soldier for a Mock Board. You just grab up a few of you fellow NCOs, find a suitable location and knock out a stinking Mock Board. Now 90 days is normal for an NCO to recommend a Soldier for the Actual Board, but if you have already been backed bay another NCO in the unit as a courtesy to that NCO I would have sent you. As for MOS proficiency, yes you should be proficient in your MOS, and NO you should not have to know everything. Nobody knows everything you will continue to learn as you progress. If every NCO knew everything about their MOS there would be no need for separate ranks in the NCO corps. Let me end this by saying don't be disappointed because you didn't make SGT at 31 months, between 3 1/2 and 5 years is average and you're still where you need to be to have a successful career, anything earlier is Top knoch best of the best, fast tracking, High speed low drag. Continue to learn from your leaders, strive for excellence and you will attain your goals.
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Subject Matter mastery is important, but it's not the only variable. You must be able to motivate your people to get the job done, and you must take care of them. That's important.
The subject matter master is crucial as well. It doesn't matter how well you lead your people if you don't know what you're doing... Then you're just uselessly spinning your wheels and wasting your peoples time. All of the components are vital.
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