Posted on Mar 15, 2018
SGT Joseph Gunderson
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CH (LTC) Robert Leroe
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With the draft the military had a better cross-section of society. With the all-volunteer military we tend to have a draft of the disadvantaged.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
SGT Joseph Gunderson
>1 y
SPC David Willis - I know that it doesn't have to do always with race but that was my example. But even looking at it like rich and poor, who cares. Do you believe that a rich kid who never got dirty doing real work is going to be better at being an infantryman than the guy who grew up on the bad side of Chicago? It makes no sense. I don't care about diversity. It does not equal success.
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SPC David Willis
SPC David Willis
>1 y
SGT Joseph Gunderson - He never said diversity wins wars, I never said it did... nobody said it did, you've just created a fake argument for the sake of arguing. All he said is if you're going to force people to fight a war they don't want to fight make sure you're taking the rich kids as well as the poor that's literally all he said, and its fair. If you're going to start a war as a politician and force other people to fight it for you (the draft) you cannot giver deferments or let people buy out of the draft, you must put all military aged males into a pool and select blindly, which has not been the case. You brought race into it and I'm not sure why, but diversity isn't a poison... having people who think differently and have different experiences isn't a bad thing. I would agree lowering standards to force diversity is a bad but diversity itself is a great thing.
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CPT Earl George
CPT Earl George
>1 y
how many of you on the forum have had drafted and non-drafted under your command at the same time?
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
>1 y
I am surprised to here an officer say this. Have you done anytime at a recruiting command?

To get into the military you have to score a minimum of a 40 on the asvab, which automatically puts you in the "average" category. and then you can't have any mental illness issues (they check now for cutting, and other signs of mental instability at MEPS). No drugs or alcohol issues, and all felonies are disqualifying. And every new applicant has to be able to secure a secret clearance. it is hell of a lot harder to qualify now than it would be with a draft.
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MAJ Corporate Buyer
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Edited 8 y ago
That no one since WWII has "fought for our freedom". Not since then has our actual freedom been threatened. In Iraq/Afghanistan/Vietnam/etc. we fought for America, sure. But had we lost/quit/etc. no ones life back home would have been void of freedom. You hear this phrase thrown around a lot though.
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SGT Herbert Bollum
SGT Herbert Bollum
>1 y
COL (Join to see) - What about Pearl Harbor ????
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MAJ Corporate Buyer
MAJ (Join to see)
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SGT Herbert Bollum - What about it?
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COL Commanding Officer
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>1 y
What about Pearl Harbor? I’m not saying that it wasn’t an insult that had to be answered ... and disproportionately. But the Japanese landing on the West Coast and taking over the U.S. was never a serious possibility. Nothing any of the Axis Powers did during WW2 was an existential threat to the U.S. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t have become involved, one way or another, but let’s not pretend we were fighting for our own freedom.
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MAJ Corporate Buyer
MAJ (Join to see)
>1 y
COL (Join to see) - I agree with you to an extent, Sir. Would the Axis powers have occupied America and forced us under their rule? Perhaps, perhaps not. However, they would have taken away freedom on a more micro scale. Japan did that when they attacked us. And I do not personally believe Germany would have stopped at the Atlantic ocean. The distinction I draw between Pearl harbor/WWII and 9/11 is that one was done by a sovereign nation(s) and one was done by a radical group of thugs more or less. I may be getting more into semantics now and I realize the point could argued either way. But had we not fought in WWII I believe America would have been much worse off. I can't say the same about Vietnam or Iraq/Afghanistan. The possibility exists I'm sure. I'm just not convinced.
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SSG Dale London
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How about this: that to be able to vote, hold an elected position or serve in a political office you should have to serve at least two years in the military or equivalent. Also: that age should not be a bar to military service. Finally: that civilian contractors should not be allowed to do a job in place of the military that the military can do. This goes for everything from working a CIF, to security details to running a dining facility. Sole exceptions would be concessions like the PX/BX/NX, NCO/Chiefs/Officers Clubs, Comissary, Four Seasons, etc.
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SGT Herbert Bollum
SGT Herbert Bollum
>1 y
Robert A. Heinlein said it well. You must have read his "Starship Troopers" (or maybe you watched the movie (I preferred the book)
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SPC Steve ChenRobbins
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It depends on who the listener is, as to which is the most unpopular. The most radical would probably be my belief in the system suggested by Robert A Heinlein whereby full voting citizenship is only available to those who have served in the Military or the equivalent. It obviously would require revision of the Constitution, at the least, and is not likely to happen bar an alien invasion or a zombie apocalypse, but while Service does not automatically make you a wise or good person, I think you should have to put in an ante if you want to decide which way the game is going to go.
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SGT Frank Jordan
SGT Frank Jordan
7 y
I agree with the thought, but many people in our country could not serve, for one reason or another (mainly medical), so I don't agree with this at all.
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SPC Steve ChenRobbins
SPC Steve ChenRobbins
7 y
SGT Frank Jordan - Barring catastrophic illnesses like being in a coma, I would personally kind of disagree with the "could not serve." The Israeli army manages to find useful positions for some folks who wouldn't even be considered here in the US. There would have to be limitations and probably adjustments for what counts as service, but still...
It's kind of a moot point, I suppose, since there is no way we will ever have the political will to implement anything even remotely resembling this requirement. Still, a guy can dream.

https://www.breakingisraelnews.com/61188/israeli-army-service-opens-doors-for-soldiers-with-special-needs-idf/
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SGT Herbert Bollum
SGT Herbert Bollum
>1 y
SGT Frank Jordan - Not all would have to serve in military ---also things similar to Peace Corps read the book "Starship Troopers"
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SFC Armando Sanchez
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The military is not a democracy.
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CW3 Michael Bodnar
CW3 Michael Bodnar
>1 y
If only more people would get that.
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SPC(P) Intelligence Analyst
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PT ceases to be an individual responsibility the second you mandate 1.5 hours of enforced pt every morning. You planned it now it's your responsibility.
PT is "only to maintain" is a lazy excuse for a bad program. No decent workout program in the world spends over an hour 5 days a week 'just maintaining' a substandard fitness level.
A forced pt program the involves running every day or almost every day is a disservice to your soldiers and a cop out.
Officers/e6+ should do pt in the mornings just like everyone else. (Maybe just my experience with this one)
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SSG Rick Miller
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That nobody but Rangers should wear a black beret, and that women don't belong in combat arms.
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SGT Joseph Gunderson
SGT Joseph Gunderson
>1 y
I actually believe that there is a majority opinion of this.
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SSG Rick Miller
SSG Rick Miller
>1 y
Not because women aren't capable, but because the protective instinct is strong in grunts, and that'll get people dead. I also don't think Joe and Josie Homebody are ready for their little girl to come home in a body bag.
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SPC Chris Ison
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Military pay is comparable, or even better than, civilian pay.
Reasoning:
Military is only taxed on base pay. Plus when deployed in a qualifying zone you pay no income tax.
You get extra pay for living off post.
You get extra pay when you mess separately.
You get an annual clothing allowance.
You get 30 days paid vacation a year.
You get some of the best free medical care and dental.
You get paid training in the skill of your choice.
You get several different incentive pays for special skills, like jump pay, dive pay, etc.

one of the best jobs you can have as a civilian is accountant (money wise). they start at 26 dollars an hour, and generally double their salary every 7 years. It takes a four year degree (which actually takes most people five years to complete). So at 23 you are making about 52k a year, regardless of where they live their is no variable housing allowance in the civilian world. If you want to work at a big 4 accounting firm you can do it, they have one in almost every major city, but if you work in San Francisco, Los Angels, Miami, New York, (these cities all have the some of the highest earning potential) you will commute 2 to 3 hours day. with commute and starting workload as an accountant you are looking at an 80 hour work week, 50-60 in the office. Plus you have to be certified to earn anything more than your starting salary and that takes a Masters degree and at least one year of accounting experience to be a CPA. so it takes you 7-8 years to become an actual "accountant". Then you have to have continuing education credits, and each year the tax code and can and does change. And if you work in say Virginia beach you top out at probably 80k a year.

A specialist over 3 makes 2314.80 base pay. or roughly 27,777.60 a year (or about 13.50 an hour for a 40 hour work week), a little more than half a starting accountant. And doesn't pay rent, utilities, school loans, or pay for medical and dental insurance, and you don't NEED a car, or any form of transportation.

But let us make a more comparable comparison an EMT, in Raleigh, N.C. averages 15 dollars an hour. NOTE this IS NOT a starting salary. this is an average of all the EMT's in the city form 0 years of experience to over 40.

There is a reason construction workers command a premium salary, they only work for 6-9 months out of the year, so they need to earn more when they work, to live during the lean times, There is a reason why certain fields like lawyer ( 7 years of education a state certification), doctor (8 years of education, 3 years of practical experience, and sate certification), accountant (6 years of education and state certification), architect ( 6 years of education and one of the most stringent state certifications lasting five days), get payed a premium salary, they spent years learning their profession.

Being a soldier is the easiest job you will ever have. Next time you think, I am going to get out and make real money, you might want to do some research first.
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MAJ G3, Fuops, Exercises Chief
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"Athleticism" is over-emphasized WRT PT.

Be fit. Be Strong. Be ready to fight. If you are pulling 'two-a-days' but you can't shoot, don't understand the fundamentals of the offense, and don't understand the Constitution you've sworn to defend, you might be an athlete. You will also be someone I don't want to fight with.

If you can shoot a gnats earwax out of his ear at 300 meters, study all the doctrine and tactics and intellectual 'meat' the Army can throw at you but are to thick or too slender to get your weapon system to the place on the battlefield it needs to be to ensure it influences the enemy in our favor, then you aren't a Soldier. You also are someone I cannot fight with.

But if you habitually score an above unit average score on a PT Test, you work hard to know your job and perform your tasks to standard if not above standard, you love America and the U.S. Constitution that protects it and it's people, and you can handle yourself respectably in a fistfight where a friend or family member is in jeopardy.... the you sound like a Warrior... and I've got your back.

Too many Soldiers spend too much vain time trying to look a certain way or run a certain speed and simultaneously could be taken out with one firm bitch-slap. That's not a Soldier in anyway consistent with the Warrior Ethos.... If you can't fight, all the PT you do is worthless.
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SPC Chris Ison
SPC Chris Ison
>1 y
I agree with you. Especially within the National Guard. The bane of my life was the PT test. I traveled in my civilian job, ate horribly, and never had very much time for pt. I failed the PT test a few times, but it always by a hair, miss the run by 10 seconds, or not do 2 extra push ups, and on the few times i managed to eek buy, i didn't pass height and weight.

Couldn't get leadership schools because of the pt test, couldn't advance, and then we deploy to Iraq, and i have an opportunity to pt, and bam lose 40 pounds and run two 7 minute miles. Now i can't get promoted because I am an infantryman in an armored unit, in a 19d spot.

So the national guard has a bunch of specialist with 10+ years, most of them honestly are soup sandwiches, but occasionally you get someone who actually knows what he is doing but for other reasons just doesn't put the time into PT. You have SGTs with 15+ years, in the same boat. and you get a guy who is a meathead, who can't zero his weapon, nor can he do land nav, but he is an E-7 because he can pass the pt test.
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SSgt Ronald Orso
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The military is not a social experiment.
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