Posted on Dec 16, 2021
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American Legion and VFW posts are losing members and not getting new ones. I had this discussion with several leaders in both organizations. Older members are dying and new members are not joiners. The older members are often not welcoming either. I think making them family oriented and getting more involved in their community events might cause them to gain more relevance and awareness. This change should increase and gain more members. Thoughts?
The American Legion
Veterans of Foreign Wars (VFW)
Family
Posted 4 y ago
Responses: 568
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"...The older members are often not welcoming either...." DING! DING! DING!! We have a winner!!!
When you are repeatedly told, "You aren't a REAL veteran because you weren't in the 'Nam" it kinda sours your desire to join. I finally joined the local VFW post (via National membership) but rarely go there as I'm shunned, ignored, and often looked at with open hostility by the older members.
When you are repeatedly told, "You aren't a REAL veteran because you weren't in the 'Nam" it kinda sours your desire to join. I finally joined the local VFW post (via National membership) but rarely go there as I'm shunned, ignored, and often looked at with open hostility by the older members.
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PO3 Karen Bolhuis
SFC Kenneth Hunnell - all the more reason that you'd think they would welcome the next generations!
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Capt James F. (Jim) Bard, Jr.
If you don't know the full story you shouldn't criticize. Every member of my entire wing were kept out of Nam for security reasons; we knew too much.
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SGT Paul Nowak
Then you need to tell them that they are fucking out of line. You tell them that you are a vet, and gave uncle Sam a blank check that was payable with your ass, just like they did.
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When I got out the 1st time (1991), I went to the VFW that my grandfather had been a member of years ago. I was told that I had to be in a combat area. I told them I was a Desert Storm vet. I was promptly told that Desert Storm wasn't a real war.
I said "fuck em" and forgot about it.
A couple months later, I happen to be at an event that the local American Legion was sponsoring.
I got to talking to one of the members there, and before I knew it I was a member.
I've been a legion member now for 28 years.
The difference between the two is night and day.
The post I belong to understands that we need to appeal to families and less to veterans only.
We're a family oriented post now, and it's way better than it was before we had the "come to Jesus" discussion and went to family format.
We actively recruit female veterans, and welcome them to our post.
We give a voice to the wives and other family members as to the direction we want to go.
If someone has an idea, we listen. We don't just blow them off.
Our post is an open book and people like that. Having secrets is no way to operate.
The American Legion as a national organization is really promoting this format as well.
A lot of posts are coming around, some better than others.
I've been to VFW Posts for programs, I'm glad I was turned away. I find them to be codger hangouts. Places where old guys drink beer and bitch about things.
If that's your thing, go for it.
The VFW I 1st went to, has sold their building, members have mostly died off and is dying on the vine.
Yet, the American Legion just a few miles down the road will hit record numbers for membership, prospers and is super active within the community.
It all about attitude and the way you treat your members.
*** Shameless Plug Alert***
If you live in the Cincinnati area, and you're a veteran, come visit us at Williamsburg Oh American Legion.
I said "fuck em" and forgot about it.
A couple months later, I happen to be at an event that the local American Legion was sponsoring.
I got to talking to one of the members there, and before I knew it I was a member.
I've been a legion member now for 28 years.
The difference between the two is night and day.
The post I belong to understands that we need to appeal to families and less to veterans only.
We're a family oriented post now, and it's way better than it was before we had the "come to Jesus" discussion and went to family format.
We actively recruit female veterans, and welcome them to our post.
We give a voice to the wives and other family members as to the direction we want to go.
If someone has an idea, we listen. We don't just blow them off.
Our post is an open book and people like that. Having secrets is no way to operate.
The American Legion as a national organization is really promoting this format as well.
A lot of posts are coming around, some better than others.
I've been to VFW Posts for programs, I'm glad I was turned away. I find them to be codger hangouts. Places where old guys drink beer and bitch about things.
If that's your thing, go for it.
The VFW I 1st went to, has sold their building, members have mostly died off and is dying on the vine.
Yet, the American Legion just a few miles down the road will hit record numbers for membership, prospers and is super active within the community.
It all about attitude and the way you treat your members.
*** Shameless Plug Alert***
If you live in the Cincinnati area, and you're a veteran, come visit us at Williamsburg Oh American Legion.
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PO3 David Blank
Sounds like my old post- I was Honor Guard and often treated like a child there which pissed me off The old codgers always treated my like a child at the post despite me having Desert Storm/Shield deployments while none of the 'codgers' ever served in a wartime zone.
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SPC Ken Cain
SGT Chris Padgett this Thursday I'll be at the VA hospital getting a camera shoved down my throat. But I'll swing by the Thursday after this one. Happy Halloween
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I had the same problem at the VFW post, I was told several times you didn't fight in a real war, The way we did in Vietnam. I'm sorry I was not old enough to serve in Vietnam, I served in Iraq and I'm an American Solider and proud that I served. We should respect each other and treat each other with Respect.
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SSG Bill McCoy
What's funny about that (VFW's) is they tole us Nam Vets, "You lost your war!" Our Legion is 78% Nam Vets, or Nam Era vets. I've never heard of any who ever shunned any Veteran . Well we do joke with Zoomies and the crayon eaters! LOL It's a post that focuses on helping any/all Vets; children & youth in mostly our county.
Yes, we have a Canteen (bar) that is the focus of a lot of men & women Vets, but that's becoming less so. We serve great food and more and more spouses and their children are involved.
Our biggest problem is smoking, and although we have an excellent filter system non- smokers avoid it. (The dining/banquet area is NON- smoking.) Posts that have made everywhere non-smoking have gone belly up. Younger Vets mostly don't smoke and have the perception that Legion's and VFW's are only about the bars. Older Vets - hell, we had cigarettes in our C-Rations!
Yes, we have a Canteen (bar) that is the focus of a lot of men & women Vets, but that's becoming less so. We serve great food and more and more spouses and their children are involved.
Our biggest problem is smoking, and although we have an excellent filter system non- smokers avoid it. (The dining/banquet area is NON- smoking.) Posts that have made everywhere non-smoking have gone belly up. Younger Vets mostly don't smoke and have the perception that Legion's and VFW's are only about the bars. Older Vets - hell, we had cigarettes in our C-Rations!
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LtCol Bruce Janis
Nothing personal, but as a Nam combat vet, I was to,s the same thing. You are not a real combat vet like us WW2and Korea vets. Many of whom were probably in Supply.
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PO3 Karen Bolhuis
SSG Bill McCoy - YES! we're having the exact same issues. Rally working to recruit younger vets to the post, and they don't want anything to do with the smoking. I'll be taking over as Commander of my VFW Post this year, and waiting to see how they all react to a woman Commander. The older Vietnam era guys say they're thrilled and will support me, but we'll see if it effects our recruiting. I said it may increase new women joining (I'm the only one now) but may turn a few men away. They said that it would be their loss, so I'm pretty happy with the support. But I still want to find a way to end the smoking in the canteen...
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I agree that the older members generally are not welcoming; especially to female veterans. I tried to get our legion more involved in the community but to no avail. After attending meetings monthly for 10 years, it was still apparent they didn't want me there. So I no longer attend. No one has ever asked me why I left or invited me back. I served for 9 years, which is longer than most of them. I know Waa waa waa. I tried and then I gave up. It just makes me sad.
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SFC Larry Triplett
I belong to the American Legion Post in Norton, Virginia and we are involved in our community
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SSG Bill McCoy
Women Veterans: Tradition, Service, Pride
The history of American women fighting for and defending their country dates back to the Revolutionary War. VA honors the service and sacrifice of all Women ...
SPC Fred Taber - Not ALL Nam vets are like that; but admittedly, to varying degrees, some are. Post leadership needs to be made aware of issues like that, if they aren't already are and work towards changing those views. One of the "problems" is that new Veterans, since the 911 event and after, aren't interested. They view Posts as "just another bar," I think and that's not the case with most bars.
Keep in mind too, Nam Vets werre treated the same/worse than females like you wife. The WW2 guys, and some Korean guys, despised us for, "not winning" our war. That's changed as, for example, 78% of our Post is comprised of Nam Vets. If more women get involved, the bias they face today will also change. From what I see at our Post, District and Department (State) level, it already is.
You just helped give me an idea ... I'm our Post's webmaster and that's a good medium to help change or improve attitudes. Thanks! :)
UPDATE: Just put this on our website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxmjHd5tpmk&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.butlerpost117.org%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.butlerpost117.org&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo
Keep in mind too, Nam Vets werre treated the same/worse than females like you wife. The WW2 guys, and some Korean guys, despised us for, "not winning" our war. That's changed as, for example, 78% of our Post is comprised of Nam Vets. If more women get involved, the bias they face today will also change. From what I see at our Post, District and Department (State) level, it already is.
You just helped give me an idea ... I'm our Post's webmaster and that's a good medium to help change or improve attitudes. Thanks! :)
UPDATE: Just put this on our website.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxmjHd5tpmk&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.butlerpost117.org%2F&embeds_referring_origin=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.butlerpost117.org&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo
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SPC Eileen Keller
I didn't have any problem being female but I did find a huge difference in the welcome and the depth of different posts.
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That's a problem in virtually every organization today ... VFW, Legion, Boy Scout Leaders, Masons, Elks, PTA's, etc. There are many reasons, but a lot has to do with the long-term/long-tiime, entrenched members not being welcoming to new blood. The most damaging thing to any of these organizations are the cliques and Mickey Mouse politics.
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SCPO Lloyd Sikes
Have to add my 2cents, been a member of the Elks and American Legion for over 40 years and the VFW for over 25. Have not observed many "cliques" and the politics are rooted in charters and statutes . Most of which can be changes/mitigated if you take time and a little initiative- work with people.
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SSG Bill McCoy
SCPO Lloyd Sikes - I'm our American Legion's Judge Advocate and a District Judge Advocate so, yes, I have initiative and am deeply involved. I'm also on the House Committee. We've cleaned up our Post and barred members for misconduct and pretty much, "cleaned house," under established rules & procedures.
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Posts need to be more female Veteran friendly. Especially with the number of Female Veterans is increasing not decreasing. Many female Veterans are survivors of MST PTSD. So the usual banter and commandery aren't always welcomed. With each female Veteran, a post needs to find out a little about her and her time while on active duty. So she feels welcomed and safe. As a female Veteran that survived MST and has PTSD. I have been treated as a Female first then a Veteran at multiple Veteran posts.
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SN Nicola Poitras
SN Nicola Poitras And female vets are not the only ones who suffer with it. I know several men who were sexually assaulted also, it is just ridiculously under reported.
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SSG Bill McCoy
LCpl April Michalik - Veteran organizations, not unlike the miliitary, simply ARE predominently male. That said, your poinjt is well taken, and yes ... it's a problem in society in general. As for Veteran organizations, more and more posts are becoming sensitive to how women are treated. We've had a female Post Commander (although, frankly she bombed); BUT we've had and still have other female officers. Our District has several females in leadership posiitions and all of those, at Post and Ditrict levels, have been ELECTED which suggests the bias is becoming less sharp.
I was in the Navy my first hitch and women were as much a curiosity as anything else. (I don't mean that to sound bad, or demeaning ... they were "rare.") In the Army, I was an MP and the female MP's were treated, and judged on their abilities, just like the men. As for MST, I never heard or saw a single indication of such assaults - probably because MP's are more atuned to the legal ramifications. (That's not to suggest MP's never had those issues, but not in the units I was in.) I had the very first MP assigned to my team in Okinawa and she was pretty good; not great but that was due to experience, NOT gender. I only had her a month before I PCS'd. Stateside, I was in a STRAC (Combat) MP unit and we began getting women alhtough, at the time, they coul dnot deploy. Like the guys, some were bad, some were pretty good and some were great. Our first femal officer was one of the BEST I ever served with and a great example to both guys and gals..
Back to Vet organizatoins ... like anything else, some are bad, some good. It does seem to be changing however.
I was in the Navy my first hitch and women were as much a curiosity as anything else. (I don't mean that to sound bad, or demeaning ... they were "rare.") In the Army, I was an MP and the female MP's were treated, and judged on their abilities, just like the men. As for MST, I never heard or saw a single indication of such assaults - probably because MP's are more atuned to the legal ramifications. (That's not to suggest MP's never had those issues, but not in the units I was in.) I had the very first MP assigned to my team in Okinawa and she was pretty good; not great but that was due to experience, NOT gender. I only had her a month before I PCS'd. Stateside, I was in a STRAC (Combat) MP unit and we began getting women alhtough, at the time, they coul dnot deploy. Like the guys, some were bad, some were pretty good and some were great. Our first femal officer was one of the BEST I ever served with and a great example to both guys and gals..
Back to Vet organizatoins ... like anything else, some are bad, some good. It does seem to be changing however.
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SSG Bill McCoy
The post I belong to tried to ban smoking and an uproar ensued. So, they held a vote and it was voted to KEEP it as a smoking facility. The sent voting cards to EVERY member and everyone had a vote. Sounds bad, right? No ... they installed highly effective ceiling mounted smoke eating equipment. Problem solved ... a once smoke shrouded bar area is virtually smoke free.
Keep in mind, we used to get cigarrettes in or C-Rations. Yes, smoking is stupid - and I smoke an occasional cigar ... but even as a virtual non-smoker, the angst I see towards smokers is a bit of overkill.
Keep in mind, we used to get cigarrettes in or C-Rations. Yes, smoking is stupid - and I smoke an occasional cigar ... but even as a virtual non-smoker, the angst I see towards smokers is a bit of overkill.
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SMSgt Lloyd Knopp
So much so Washington State banned smoking inside, and to not less than 25 feet of any entrance.
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SSG Bill McCoy
@SP5 A Lake: you're absolutely correct, especially on the smoking issue. I'm a Nam guy & a Legion Post and District Judge Advocate. Our Post, and most allow smoking.
The problem is we're too heavy with older Vets who still smoke. Most younger guys don't smoke and bars aren't their thing either. I smoke but in 24 years with the Legion, I've had only three beers, and one mixed drink. Not smoking is no problem for me. If we were starting a brand new Post, it'd be no bar & no smoking, but if we did that at our existing Post, we'd be broke in a year. So we're pushing the focus towards actual Veteran issues/needs, children & youth programs, American ism and National Security - the "Four Pillars" of the Legion.
The problem is we're too heavy with older Vets who still smoke. Most younger guys don't smoke and bars aren't their thing either. I smoke but in 24 years with the Legion, I've had only three beers, and one mixed drink. Not smoking is no problem for me. If we were starting a brand new Post, it'd be no bar & no smoking, but if we did that at our existing Post, we'd be broke in a year. So we're pushing the focus towards actual Veteran issues/needs, children & youth programs, American ism and National Security - the "Four Pillars" of the Legion.
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It's all about evolution. There are a mix out there of successful and unsuccessful posts. Those who are doing well are changing things up and those who refuse to evolve aren't.
The days of Veterans going to smoke filled canteens to avoid their families or spouses are a thing of the past. Bingo isn't as popular with the younger generation and there is a desire to attend more events and things that are fitness oriented. I have seen it both ways and those that embrace change do really well but there has to be some change. Veterans are different now than they were 30 years ago.
The days of Veterans going to smoke filled canteens to avoid their families or spouses are a thing of the past. Bingo isn't as popular with the younger generation and there is a desire to attend more events and things that are fitness oriented. I have seen it both ways and those that embrace change do really well but there has to be some change. Veterans are different now than they were 30 years ago.
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COL (Join to see)
Exactly! Well said. And these organizations are by their nature, conservative - in the sense that they don't change quickly. We are in the midst here of evolving... it's a work in progress.
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SPC Matt Ovaska
SSgt Christophe Murphy - We know that we are dying off. Our friend's names are written on the wall. We will soon join them. The VA hospitals are helping us get their quicker. I stay away as much as I can. Then, you can take over the VFW's. The conservatives will be gone.
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SSgt Christophe Murphy
SPC Matt Ovaska Veterans across the board are dying. It’s major issue. 22 a day isn’t limited to a single generation of veteran. Not sure what you are trying to accuse with the conservatives will be gone line.
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Honestly, here's a few. First, today's vets are different. VETTV comes to mind. Second, events. I know I'd be more apt to go if there was more community involvement, stuff like that. When I picture a VFW I see dive bar style filled with nam vets. Nothing wrong with that, but not as appealing to younger vets. Third, be more open about what they offer. Every VFW in my area is a building that says VFW and thats it. If you don't walk in you wouldn't know anything about it. Make it known its a hangout, a place for history, remembrance, celebration, and VA help.. I think more "curb appeal" would do wonders.
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SPC Matt Ovaska
Soo stay home, You don't have to go to the VFW. I don't go to rock concerts. I have nothing in common with those folks. I don't want to change them in any way. I just got back from Cork, Ireland. There were 6 pubs in one alley. I went in one " dive pub.". You probably wouldn't like it. I felt right at home.
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My #1 pet peeve with any veteran organization is how they treat female veterans. We either have to fight tooth and nail to even be acknowledged as a veteran and not a wife of a veteran (which I'm not), or we get relegated to the auxiliary group.
I served my country no differently than any man did. Acknowledge it and treat female veterans the same way you do the male veteran.
I served my country no differently than any man did. Acknowledge it and treat female veterans the same way you do the male veteran.
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SSG Leo Mcardle
I totally agree with you. The sad part is if a female Veteran has a bad experience she gets turned off. My AL post struggles to get younger members and female Veterans. We have two of which one is our Chaplain. The other lady just joined and so far seems happy with our post. We would love to have more female members and get their feedback.
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