What would you do if your CSM was ignoring uniform and grooming standards? (CSM Flournoy)

When I was in WLC now BLC I read a sign it said “Sgt if you walk passed a difficency without correcting it you have created a new standard.". There is also a thing called general authority, that gives any SM the right to correct a difficency such as this one. Sounds like people are to afraid to correct her or if they have she ignored it which is disrespectful of your rank. I'll end this with one question. How many males has she told to get a haircut?

The standard dress code is for a purpose, leaders should keep to the standard set the example. Shame on this new Army and its leader unauthorized practices outside of set standards.. before long they will hand out medals just for showing up for formations.

I can't even imagine a lack of Military Bearing or Compassion for not only her Brother in Arms, but the grief of his Brother by blood.

In grief: I would verbally DISSECT her, dismiss her summarily and take the rap later

I'm going to make a point about her chain of command (upwards from her). If you remember, EVERY service had "witch hunts" when the race/gender card was played. Many JUNIOR NCO's and officers watched good leaders get crucified on the cross of political correctness. PC is pure bullshit and we all know it is.

We also know that ALL of our armed forces are the nation's SOCIAL EXPERIMENT. Nothing new here. First to Integrate, women in combat roles, witch hunts for gays and lesbians, you name it, it's happened.

The ONE thing that kept us going was that the majority of us, no matter WHAT service we were in, nor what rank we held, held onto our integrity and honor, many times when we had literally NOTHING left (if we were the target of an unjustified witch hunt).

So think about the commanders in this situation. They've SEEN their compatriots get leveled by EEO complaints, harassment complaints, Sexual Innuendo, or worse.

Folks, these commander's aren't just MEN AND WOMEN. They have FAMILIES. It's almost like a hostage situation, more than it is blackmail, because women like this CAN hold a commander hostage.

For instance, take one of the guys on here who commented. He had 39 years, 16 in command positions. His son is now in the Army (SP4, I think?). Now his SON has, by now, seen at least ONE person who has literally been held hostage by a woman like this (or a guy, for that matter, if it was just the race card that was played.)

So what do you think this 5th generation military man, who was "raised right" by all reasonable standards of conduct (I'm also 5th gen), who KNOWS what is right and what should be done, when confronted with this as a single man, who is not an NCO yet? Let's call it "pissed but powerless".

As he advances in rank, he'll see more and more men AND women doing "emergency avoidance" maneuvers to stay away from these Prima Donna types. But sooner or later they WILL run into one. Single and low rank, not much to lose, except the stain on your family name if you attempt to correct this person and she launches a full broadside at him.

Now, let's say this SP4 manages to avoid one of these "dragons", finishes his degree and becomes a Mustang. Now, as a 2nd or 1st LT, he runs into this dragon AGAIN, and this time he HAS the power to do something.

So he tries to correct her, privately, politely and with tact. And she unloads a full broadside on him, in public. Not only does he wind up looking like a whipped puppy, this supposed CSM "Dragon" has also not only destroyed our happy little LT, but she's destroyed ALL confidence in her that anyone who saw this display had for her (which probably wasn't much to begin with, but I'll give the benefit of the doubt, since this isn't the ONLY DRAGON in the service (or Sea Hag, for the navy..lol)

So the erstwhile LT goes to his boss/commander and states his case. The commander now has a choice to make, that CAN not only affect him, but his entire command, his future and the future of HIS FAMILY..as in wife and kids.

He obviously KNOWS what this particular DRAGON/SEA HAG is capable of. Is he a coward if he decides to protect his family? We'd all answer yes, MAYBE.

But HE was brought up in the era of CYA (Cover Your ASS), and he knows that if he tried to kill the DRAGON that he's NOT Saint George, he doesn't have a sword, or really ANY weapon other than paperwork. But the DRAGON has come up thru the ranks knowing EXACTLY what paperwork can KILL Saint George, and she's not afraid to use it.

So does the good Saint George now run the risk of having not only his name, but his family disgraced? Of course he does. How do you DISPROVE ATTEMPTED RAPE? You can't. Period. Her word against yours. You're the higher rank. She can say you made a pass, she rejected it and now she's screaming retaliation. Even if you're totally cleared and the woman is shitcanned from the service the hard way, YOUR reputation is now permanently STAINED, simply for the fact that you had been INVESTIGATED. Security clearance canceled or put on hold.

Ever heard of an officer with MANY allegations of this kind, even if all of them were disproved, being the darling of the promotion board? I think not.

I guarantee you that this CSM has a long record of playing her cards, and truthfully, playing them well.

Not saying that all commanders are pure as the driven snow. A while back the USAF IG, yeah, the head of the IG, was sacked because HE was a womanizer who should have been taken out and SHOT. And to top it off, he was DEATH on gender discrimination. Great cover. He was a molester at best. Probably the largest single embarrassment (aside from Billy Bob Clinton) the USAF has had. And it got very little press and I think the jerk even managed to retire.

So when anyone, from a Junior Enlisted to a senior officer sees this happening all around him, what are either of them to do? Because if they truly wish to press to test and NOT let up until the fix is in, they might just be out of the service on a bad conduct discharge.

And believe me, I've seen FAR too many good soldiers, sailors and airmen get flushed out of the service for laughable reasons, because they called their "masters" out for trying to enforce standards that they personally could never meet. And their reward for keeping their honor and integrity was a bad conduct discharge.

When I came into the US Army in 1980, it was primarily still a "boys club" that was slowly being integrated. You only saw female soldiers in personnel or other support functions, but for the most part, you didn't have to interact with many of them outside of the base hospital or the personnel office. And if you had a private who wasn't conforming, you tried talking to him first and then took him out behind the barracks second, which usually worked far better than any barrage of paper ever did.

At that time, ALL the services were looking for innovators..men and women who could think up new ways of doing things that were better, faster, safer and more economical. And they hired us, and we did just that, and transformed the military (if anyone here was on the Jump into Grenada, you know exactly what I mean..nobody could talk to anyone else in any other service (excepting the marines and navy but they couldn't talk to anyone else either)

However, there were those old salts who really didn't like working WITH women, or, especially, FOR women. And they were rather vocal about it. So it took a decade or two to get rid of that entrenched resistance. Most of us born in the 50's and 60's were raised to PROTECT women, and I quite frankly think that is instinctive to begin with.

Hence the huge barrier blocking women from being in combat. I happen to agree with that, but NOT for the way you might think. I know quite a few female snipers. Women that can out shoot me, and outperform me. it's not ABOUT PERFORMANCE. It's about instinct. Your FIRST instinct. If I'm in a foxhole with a woman, my FIRST instinct is to protect HER. NOT because she's weaker, or a worse shot, or that there's ANYTHING wrong with her combat capabilities. Simply INSTINCT.

Bear with me here, as I can FEEL all the women reading this having the hair on their neck bristle up.

So, what had to pass is that society had to start raising kids to think that men and women were EQUAL. That means changing what's on TV, policies both public and private..schools, churches, politicians, EVERYTHING had to be changed, and it WAS CHANGED, slowly but surely. Possibly even more changed, equality wise, than it was between different races.

Now, if you ask a high school kid about equality, a lot of times he doesn't even THINK of equality between men and women FIRST..he thinks of race, or "white privilege" or something else. In many ways, this is a GOOD thing, depending on what you believe in.

However, those PIONEERING women who joined the service back when I did, came to find out that no, at that time, the resistance was still there. And MANY men tried to do, and succeeded in doing, some truly horrible things to women in the service and most of you have at least heard of, if not seen, some of it yourselves since it still continues to this day.

So to combat this problem the EEO or EEOT or whatever your service acronym for it, was invented to provide a path that was supposedly retaliation FREE, and was an avenue for women and races other than white to voice complaints on the way they were being treated.

Unfortunately, those who were being mistreated quickly found that EEO was a very GOOD weapon to use against leaders who simply didn't like the change in policy, or actively opposed it. And then the witch hunts started on both sides of the fence. Then the whistleblower act came into play later on. BOTH created an atmosphere that was based on CYA and political correctness.

EVERYONE had to watch what they said AND did. No more "off color" jokes (not meaning race, but just about ANY joke is at the expense of SOMEONE, right?) I even got brought up on charges several times for a few of the old marching cadences I had from the old days (Starting with "I wish all the ladies...." I'm sure you all remember a few of them.. "And I was a mason..." Yeah, you get the point. And the girls were singing just as loud as the guys were, and laughing..but ONE poor soul took it wrong and boom, the hammer fell.

So now, these "minorities" either by gender or race, had a weapon and it was a fearsome one. We called it "how to end someone's career in three easy steps"

Step one: Be a minority or female or better yet, BOTH

Step two: If you get caught out of regs or do something stupid, throw the race/gender card.

Step three: File formal charges and let the IG fire off with both barrels.

Step four: If retaliated upon, go back to step 2.

So, as "upper management" suddenly found itself imperiled in a forum where guilt was assumed and you must prove your own innocence, they learned thru trial and error that the best way to protect yourself was to simply cave in to whatever these "baby dragons" wanted, whether it be to wear a turban instead of a field cap, to ordering vehicles with power steering, automatic transmissions and air conditioning (I still remember the first USAF truck I drove..a 1966 Dodge crew cab 4x4, manual everything..brakes, steering, transmission, windows, etc..might have had a heater in there somewhere but it never worked)

So one might THANK the nice gals for forcing that change..which made life easier for all of us!

However, now our leadership is under siege, and life is starting to SUCK for the top brass, because EVERY little old school guy who was left in the service was now a target. Many retired so they could vent their frustration and anger on web forums (yes, I'm laughing..but it's true too, in a few cases)

Many of them felt, as I do, that the United States of America that they grew up in no longer existed. And we are correct. Those days of innocence and bliss are gone forever, except in our memories. Reality sucks. Deal with it.

But now, getting back to our SP4 turned 2LT who has to correct this female CSM, and gets browbeaten in front of his own troops for trying to enforce the standards HE is responsible for maintaining (since he's supposed to set the example). Remember he comes from 5 or more generations of military relatives and family. He's SHARP. He HAS INTEGRITY AND HONOR. He also just got slapped with a large dose of REALITY.

His first dilemma. There are people in the service with NO morals, NO integrity and NO HONOR! WTF, right? He's completely lost. He's been taught by his parents, siblings etc to LISTEN to your NCO's and they'll KEEP YOU ALIVE in the combat Zone (since we're sure they've seen a few movies, like "We were soldiers once, and young" , which is probably the best example of how to use a sidearm in combat ever made, and I STILL think all the services should go back to the old Colt Model 1911 .45 APC)

To us products of the 50's and 60's, we remember those movies, like PATTON, The Green Berets, and all the others, and they were for the most part factual. Later on came the others that showed the rougher, not so heroic side of Vietnam. Our services were disgraced by the public. Then Desert Shield/Storm came and we as servicemen got our PRIDE back, and the public was for the most part proud of us (at that time at least)

Then we had Bosnia, a horrible experience for many of us..which made us wonder why ANYONE in his right mind would want to attempt to conquer ANY part of Europe, for ANY reason. Rivers of mud we had to live in..that was Bosnia for me.

But again, women didn't play a huge role in either of those fights (though yes, they were much more VISIBLE during desert shield and storm, and those who were there did one hell of a job in very nasty conditions (ever see a laser printer last more than 20 pages in a sandstorm?) And we unfortunately had our first female POW's, whom thankfully were released at the end of that mess

So we bounce around during this time..Haiti, an embarrassment beyond belief. Actions we truly had no business even being in (many of the African peacekeeping attempts come to mind),

Then the Barracks bombing in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia. Clinton's fake tears pissing thousands of us off who were over there, and totally enraging me to the point I got tackled and sedated.

And then we hit 9/11, when the services had once again been drawn down, especially the US Army. Nearly ALL the toys we played with in Desert Storm were gone now..the B-52G's cut in half at the boneyard for some stupid treaty the American people never voted for (Russian Start II, I think? Correct me if I'm wrong about that)

And now, with the incredible shortfalls of personnel, we saw our first women in pure combat roles, and we saw more instances of friction between men and women on the front line. NOT because we thought they couldn't do the job, but because we, once again, as men, had been raised to protect women. However, most of the gals stood their ground against that attitude and they were right to do so. But they NEED to REMEMBER that INSTINCT doesn't change overnight.

So now we hit the present day. And just like there are men in the services who prey on women (unfortunately, and they should be drawn and quartered when caught, then sewn up, filled with explosives and left for jihadis to find..lol) there are women who prey on men. And the better looking they are, the easier the conquest. Especially since the "what goes tdy, stays tdy" sentiment is even more prevalent today than it was 10 years ago when I retired.

Now one thing has changed. The good old boy networks of alcoholics has, for the most part, retired. The OLD way of getting rid of a problem child was to firewall his performance reports and give him or her to another organization, preferably on the moon or as far away from us as possible. And if they were smart, they'd take that assignment and start over with a clean slate. Many did just that and had successful careers after they had "gotten the point" and changed their attitudes. However, many did NOT!

And that leads us to the the present problem with this CSM. SHE is one of the folks who figured out early how to GAME the systems and use it to her own benefit. She effectively became INVULNERABLE. Whether she had dirt on the commander or invented it (or did the deed herself), if he wanted his career to continue, he either ignored what she did, covered it up or if it got too hot, figured out a way to transfer her out of his rapidly receding hairline before he lost it all due to stress.

This one, it seems, has never had ANYONE above her (in rank) stand up to her. But can you call the CDR a coward for trying to preserve his 30 year career, his retirement, he reputation, and his family name, not to mention those 3 kids in college?

Of course you can, and you'd be correct. But how many of YOU would be willing to put your hard earned rank, career, integrity and honor on the line to STOP a woman like this, AT ALL COSTS?

Our erstwhile Lieutenant certainly could have TRIED, preferring charges on her for gross insubordination, if nothing else, if she chewed his ass in public like that. Even better if one of his troops had recorded the incident on his cell phone. That is PROOF that even a SENATOR cannot ignore. But even that could backfire..retaliation is real and it sucks. The regs can say whatever they hell the JCS wants them to say (which makes me wonder what they did with the UCMJ concerning sodomy, since gays and lesbians can now serve openly..but can they really BE what they are...has the UCMJ been changed to reflect this?)

God help us if this CSM suddenly says she's a lesbian and is getting retaliated on for that..god, she'd get away scot free again?

I'll remind ALL OF YOU that SAYING you'd fall on your sword to stop this vile woman is one thing, but DOING it is another thing entiredly. And some intrepid individuals here on RP HAVE done it, and my hat, and heart, go out to them for keeping their integrity and honor, even in the face of being falsely disgraced.

From the posts of those who have either worked for or encountered this woman, this has been a systemic failure of our military supervisory system and it's NOT an isolated event.

However, if it happened in our father's time (my dad was born in 1920), well, it would NOT have happened at all..because it simply wouldn't have been tolerated, period. The USA I grew up in is gone forever. In some ways that IS a good thing. In other ways, like our morals and standards of conduct, and the OLD ways of enforcing them (just like your dad making you pick your switch when you got in trouble) are now considered abuse. But WE (us old farts) survived it and turned out pretty well overall. We didn't do drugs, join gangs, treat women like crap (just listen to some popular music now, it doesn't help things much). But we can't hold a candle to what our grandparents did. Not even close.

The problem is politics. I call it "Garrison Mentality". Ever notice how things run so much smoother when bullets are flying? And how things can turn to absolute shit once the real fighting stops?

I have a cure for this CSM. Send her out on patrol as POINT in rural Afghanistan, or Syria, or Iraq. IN THE BATTLE ZONE. Let's see if she can be a REAL COMMAND SERGEANT MAJOR! (or a GI JANE..lol) Just like that CSM in that movie "We were Soldiers once, and YOUNG". THAT is what a CSM should be (and an old CSM named JONES who was an instructor at Wentworth Military Academy was one of my mentors, and he was one TOUGH SOB..and we'd have followed that man into hell, and probably gotten back out again too!

So think a bit about the plight of those unfortunate souls saddled with this fiery. mercurical, dangerous and toxic CSM. (dare I append a chronic case of PMS to her case file?) Many of you here HAVE fought people like this, but I didn't read about many successful fights..only retaliation and being booted out the door for your efforts. You kept your honor and integrity, but it soured you permanently on what could have been a very rewarding career, had circumstances allowed you not to cross the path of someone who did you in.

Maybe you should all tweet this story to Mr Trump...I have a feeling HE would be happy to pull her fangs, and I doubt he'd have to ask for evidence..folks would be falling all over themselves to say what they had experienced at the hands of this viperous woman. ANY CSM, regardless of sex, gender, religion, race, persuasioin or whatever else you can think of should be allowed to dress down an LT in front of his command. Nor any officer either. Her hair and heels are but a side issue compared with her CONDUCT. The problem is that she's made herself UNTOUCHABLE and that needs to change. And if Facebook and LinkedIn are the only places where ANYONE in the chain will pay attention to the problem, then you have to figure that (hopefully) those who posted there TRIED the chain, and the chain just flushed them down the toilet.

Is it proper? No. And there are probably twenty sides to this story, at LEAST. But as was mentioned here, if those intrepid souls were that DESPERATE to be heard, and the ears that SHOULD BE LISTENING are deaf, then maybe this is just the kind of HEARING AID they need!

Now if ANYONE had spoken up in DEFENSE of this CSM's virtues, I might have a different view, but she has been universally PILLORIED here, not a single outright vote of support. And in the military, we ALL know that in reality YOU are GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT. And the court of public opinion is merciless. Being drawn and quartered is too good for this CSM. She's not just a disgrace to the uniform, she's a TRAITOR to her rank, her service and her nation. Look up the definition of TRAITOR. You don't have to be selling secrets to the enemy. All you have to do is undermine the confidence the service has in its leaders.

Vietnam gave us a new meaning for the words "FRAG ORDER". Right down the back of the pants. Would ANY of you follow this CSM into combat? Real combat? If she wants to PROVE she's the real deal, she'll take point...

Dave

Make on the spot correction, without being insubordinate.

She should be reprimanded by her superiors.

If the stories are all true, someone should give her a blanket party before her boss chews her a new asshole and demotes her to an E-5. The Army just can't let this one slide.

Document, photographs, witness statements, enforce AR 670-1 in front of other NCOs , IG complaints, congressional, chaplain, NCO creed was created for a reason, effects morale and mission

Reduction in grade and Relief For Cause...Cut and dry. And tell her something that every paratrooper knows...."When you feel yourself falling free of the aircraft, activate your reserve for a complete malfunction."