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In various forms, this question has been asked all the time here on RallyPoint. Now that I have returned to active duty, this time around as an officer, I find myself asking it.
I can tell you that in my heart, the answer is never. Conversation over.
But it's not that simple, people are not that simple. Legal and ethical responsibilities are not that simple. The fact is that not everyone belongs in the military; they can't hack it for one reason or another. But I don't think I, as a leader, am always the one to decide that; the soldier usually is. I identify when a soldier is choosing to quit, i.e. be lazy, be unprepared, lack discipline and tenacity, act unethically, disregard standards and thus choosing to fail. I won't be the reason a soldier is failing, the only excuse they'll have is their own words and actions. So we work and we train until we meet standards. I will believe in them and I will train them, they have to do the rest. This means believing in themself and aligning with my plans with proportionate effort.
I know that puts a lot on each of our shoulders, but isn't that the job we signed up for? We don't have to be the best; I can tell you without a doubt I am far from it. However, we must give our best in working to achieve the standards of our profession, if we are failing to meet them.
Therefore, we almost never give up on each other. The exception is simply being incapable of meeting standards, which is certainly possible. But I feel like that's the rarity. Or perhaps, I feel like we should go forward assuming the best of our soldiers, and that incapability is the rarity.
Please let me know if I am off base with this. What do you think?
I can tell you that in my heart, the answer is never. Conversation over.
But it's not that simple, people are not that simple. Legal and ethical responsibilities are not that simple. The fact is that not everyone belongs in the military; they can't hack it for one reason or another. But I don't think I, as a leader, am always the one to decide that; the soldier usually is. I identify when a soldier is choosing to quit, i.e. be lazy, be unprepared, lack discipline and tenacity, act unethically, disregard standards and thus choosing to fail. I won't be the reason a soldier is failing, the only excuse they'll have is their own words and actions. So we work and we train until we meet standards. I will believe in them and I will train them, they have to do the rest. This means believing in themself and aligning with my plans with proportionate effort.
I know that puts a lot on each of our shoulders, but isn't that the job we signed up for? We don't have to be the best; I can tell you without a doubt I am far from it. However, we must give our best in working to achieve the standards of our profession, if we are failing to meet them.
Therefore, we almost never give up on each other. The exception is simply being incapable of meeting standards, which is certainly possible. But I feel like that's the rarity. Or perhaps, I feel like we should go forward assuming the best of our soldiers, and that incapability is the rarity.
Please let me know if I am off base with this. What do you think?
Training
PRT (Army)
Leadership
Platoon Leader
Motivation
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 27
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You don’t. But there’s nothing you can do when they give up on themselves.
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SFC Casey O'Mally
Sir,
Purpose, direction, and motivation. Someyimes when they "give up on themselves" it is a failure to properly provide motivation. Not always, but sometimes. I would encourage you, and all leaders, to look at what they can do even after the Soldier "gives up on themself."
(This is not to say that you do not. Just an observation of the artbof leadership as it applies to Soldiers "giving up.")
Purpose, direction, and motivation. Someyimes when they "give up on themselves" it is a failure to properly provide motivation. Not always, but sometimes. I would encourage you, and all leaders, to look at what they can do even after the Soldier "gives up on themself."
(This is not to say that you do not. Just an observation of the artbof leadership as it applies to Soldiers "giving up.")
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I never gave up on them. But that doesn't mean that I supported their continued presence in my Army, either. Even as they were being chaptered on my recommendation, I still supported them and worked to find them the best possible civilian path.
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1LT (Join to see)
They're great and most of them are working hard. I am getting some push back from them however as things change.
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I never gave up on a troop. I did have several that gave up on themselves though. At that point, the best thing you can do for them is help them return to civilian status. The military isn't for everyone. Some don't realize that until after they have completed Basic and AIT.
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If you stick in this business long enough, you'll be a commander. You will have to make those decisions I'm completing a chapter packet, or other means of discipline such as UCMJ. This includes your ability at a company level to complete summarized article 15's and recommendations for hire authority. Never feel bad about doing this. This is your job. Ensuring that you uphold the standard. Ensuring that your small corner of the Army is the best that you can possibly make it. Remember it's a team effort. So your NCOs that train and execute, and the soldiers that are train ed since basic training, through AIT, and then to your formation. Remember there's also NCOs that have been in for a number of years that will put themselves in a category to receive UCMJ or a chapter. Always remember it's a decision that they made. You just happened to put the pieces together and execute the administrative portion. When I was in command I always expressed to everyone that they are the ones that put them in positions. Weather positive or negative they're the ones that make the choice to do the right thing or the wrong thing. To take initiative or not take initiative.
I understand your post and the philosophy that you're questioning, I suggest you use these questions toward your seniors and look for guidance and mentorship. Where rally point is good for basic conversational functions, I always recommend the first step is senior people whether company commanders, first sergeants, battalion executive officers, etc. In order to gain realistic insight.
I understand your post and the philosophy that you're questioning, I suggest you use these questions toward your seniors and look for guidance and mentorship. Where rally point is good for basic conversational functions, I always recommend the first step is senior people whether company commanders, first sergeants, battalion executive officers, etc. In order to gain realistic insight.
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1LT (Join to see)
Thank you sir. I actually wrote up a 4856 outlining some of my intent just now. Taking it to my team and to higher tomorrow for feedback.
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I think you said it yourself, you don't. Usually it's the Soldier that gives up. I have dealt with the Soldier who can't pass the APFT or weight standards which then affects their ability to attend NCOES, becomes a burden on metrics, and leaves you having to explain to the Commnader/1SG what the issue is and how you plan to fix it. When the Soldier isn't willing you have to document through counseling, continue to provide mentorship, and seek to find out what is the issue. When all options fail then separation might be the right choice. I had one who struggled with weight so they couldn't attend school and then when the weight was under control they ended up on a profile and couldn't take the APFT. I worked with the Soldier on exercise and eating plans but they had no drive to reach higher. They didn't want to be a leader, they were ok with wearing the rank but didn't want the responsibility. All I could do then was continue to provide leadership, give them opportunities to succeed, and when they failed to document it on their evaluation report. Because their status affected unit readiness we attempted to process the Soldier for separation; however, our company HR office was not efficient in their performance in processing the separation packet. I retired before the case was resolved. So, we provide every opportunity for them to succeed and show them we are with them. When they aren't willing or able to succeed then maybe it's time for them to find a new career outside of the military.
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When I wanted to give up while in, my C O, and the N C O's around me bolstered me up and gave the reason not to give up. So the answer is to never give up on the person.
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1LT (Join to see) As a leader or even a peer you never give up - they may give up on themselves, their military career, a marriage, and the list is endless, but you're always there for them no matter the circumstances. Whatever their individual decision is, never close the door or lose their respect for not being available during good and bad times. Make yourself available, always provide guidance, and provide an open door for council. I put in these words every day:
"Respect Always - Warriors for Life!"
"Respect Always - Warriors for Life!"
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You have a finite amount of time and assets. How much will you spend on the soldiers who want and deserve it? How much will you spend on the soldiers who who don't want it and don't deserve it.
You cannot salvage a soldier who does not want to be salvaged.
You cannot salvage a soldier who does not want to be salvaged.
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1LT (Join to see)
That's a good point. And in turn, how much will I expect of my NCO's in training them.
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I work to help soldiers who truly want to help themselves. I will give some examples: 1) I had two overweight Soldiers. I went after work to go on runs and assist with eating habits. One managed to lose the weight, while the other refused to run without falling out while bragging about how much he was eating. After two months I turned him over to be chapter. 2) For NCOs and officers no forgiveness for drugs or alcohol charges...I recommend max/max and separation when I can. The first example can be used for Soldiers minor discipline problems as well. You can tell if a Soldier is trying to better themselves or if they no longer care. Just my two cents.
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