Posted on Mar 22, 2014
When is it OK to display religious verses in military settings? What about your barracks?
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Touchy subject, but a battle wanted me to post this to get feedback. (seriously his question, but it was good enough for me ask, he thinks RP is like FB) An Air Force Cadet wrote a Biblical Verse on his white board on his room door. Not in his room, but on the outside facing the hallway. After a few months he was instructed to erase it or be released from Academy. He erased it after a short debate with his leadership. I'm assuming he reported this to the media as civilian advocates are trying to boycott the academy now. The verse was a quote that encouraged the Cadet every morning. That's the simplest version of the story.<div><br></div><div>So my question.<div><br><div>1. We swore an Oath of Enlistment that contains "So help me God"</div><div>2. CPT <span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">Kamaljeet S. Kalsi authorized to wear turban and beard for religious reasons</span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">3. Soldiers don't deploy or are sent home from deployments if they claim its against their religion.</span></div></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">4. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred. (I should retake my EO course on ALMS)</span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; line-height: 22px;"> </span></div><div><span style="font-size: small; color: rgb(84, 84, 84); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;"><br></span></div><div><font color="#545454" face="arial, sans-serif" size="2"><span style="line-height: 18 [login to see] 39453px;">If a Soldier can't adhere to regulations or standards, they should not be able to enlist or be discharged. Why isn't it that black & white? I started this post thinking "Commandant's discretion" is that the best answer.</span></font></div></div>
Air Force
Religion
Doctrine
Policy
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 44
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I learn that how much our intentions to encourage someone with scriptures displayed on a board or maybe a banner someone will be offended. If you and a individual or maybe a group want to share words of encouragements during regular duty time, go into a private area at lunchtime to pray or hold bible study. After all, your lunchtime is your free time, it shouldn't be any confusion.
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CW3 (Join to see)
Here's the thing, Top... could those who it might offend opt out and walk away from it with no repercussions? If so, and they still complained, then I'd say issue them a Hurt Feelings Report (tm)
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MSG Floyd Williams
CW2 J.D. W....It is always a choice for us to believe and be a part of Bible Study and Worship Service. Those who are against it forever reason, I just include them in my prayers for God to touch their hearts. It is no different in the civilian world, where ever you go there will be non-believers around.
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MSG Floyd Williams
We have to keep in mind God have a mission for us that is to reach out to lost individuals, this is a command not a request it is all about sacrifice and obedience. God knows in advance who we can bring to Jesus, and who we cannot it is about obeying His will.
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What is the question? If the question is if it was right for the Cadet to be required to take it down I say absolutely. The white board may belong to the Cadet but the room and door belong to the academy and therefore is not for the display of personal beliefs, quotes etc; Instead it is to be used for messages directly related to the Cadets school related activities, accountability and/or professional messages.
The caveat to that is whether or not other students were afforded the same opportunity to post thier own personal messages unrelated to their education. If the answer is Yes, then the commandant must require ALL students to remove personal messages and/or statements. If the answer is no, See above.
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SFC Toby Reid
I disagree, we fight for these freedoms, and although we can go around the world with this topic. But as long as he is not preaching or trying to convert people, then it supports our constitution and our pledge as "One Nation under GOD indivisible with liberty and justice for all". Unfortunately, the military is an institution were we obey orders of our superiors. We will not agree with all those orders, but we obey them when lawful.
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CPT (Join to see)
The word god wasn't added to the Pledge until 1954. The original, written in the late 1890s by a minister, didn't contain the phrase at all.
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SSG Daniel Deiler
True statement sir...semantics. It's kind of like asking an instructor "Can I use the latrine?" Nonetheless, your re-wording was exactly my intended meaning. :)
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CW3 (Join to see)
I think the first question for this individual is, did someone find it offensive. if the answer is yes, then he can put it inside the room. if it was not meant for all to see it should not have been outside the room.
sir I argue that someone didn't want to see it. it offended someone. there are more than the big 5 in the world and not everyone want to hear about it.
sir I argue that someone didn't want to see it. it offended someone. there are more than the big 5 in the world and not everyone want to hear about it.
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Your cadet appropriated government equipment in order to further a personal religious goal. Freedom of speech and freedom of religion is not the same as an entitlement to platform.
We can't use our access to the post to preach in the barracks, we can't broadcast our political views on the battalion net, we can't use the company copier to make religious pamphlets, and we can't write bible quotes on wherever we want on government whiteboards.
'1. We swore an Oath of Enlistment that contains "So help me God"'
This portion is optional.
'2. CPT Kamaljeet S. Kalsi authorized to wear turban and beard for religious reasons' The beard and turban were not issued.
'3. Soldiers don't deploy or are sent home from deployments if they claim its against their religion.'
Contentious objection has been widely recognized throughout the entire history of this nation. It is clearly covered in our regulations.
'4. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred.'
Who said it was?
We can't use our access to the post to preach in the barracks, we can't broadcast our political views on the battalion net, we can't use the company copier to make religious pamphlets, and we can't write bible quotes on wherever we want on government whiteboards.
'1. We swore an Oath of Enlistment that contains "So help me God"'
This portion is optional.
'2. CPT Kamaljeet S. Kalsi authorized to wear turban and beard for religious reasons' The beard and turban were not issued.
'3. Soldiers don't deploy or are sent home from deployments if they claim its against their religion.'
Contentious objection has been widely recognized throughout the entire history of this nation. It is clearly covered in our regulations.
'4. When was religion considered indecent, sexist, racist or hatred.'
Who said it was?
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There are two topics of discussion I try to avoid like the plague. One of them is religion and the other is politics. I don't need people to force their views on me just as I don't like to preach my views to others. Do I think it's wrong for people to show their support and beliefs for certain things? No. However, there is a time and place to discuss such topics.
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SSgt (Join to see)
SFC Wallace M. - It is the Laws of Gravity. I do want to add that gravity's force may be weak but we do know it exists. Drop a pen and it falls to the floor. What we are not sure of is why, exactly. That is where more time and more understanding may complete the picture.
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SFC (Join to see)
oh yeah, i digressed this thread big time. I meant to say evolution is a form of "religion". The hierarchy of the modern dog at top a wild wolf for an example, branches off into other dog species, at the bottom a poodle. That's Christianity. Evolution can not be viewed, can not be witnessed, nor can it be validated other than through speculation and the inclusion of millions of years. Evolution says' the wild wolf is at top and branches out, at the bottom is an elephant. It actually says rocks were on top with a primordial goo and millions of years (that's the key, thats the speculation, the religious belief) human arose. Either or, all my opinions change when new facts become present and I only have a GED so bare with me. Regardless, I'm not persuading, just adding fuel to fire with relevant information that millions of people take into consideration. Final sentence, there is a higher being whose soul purpose is to push the agenda of prosperity, unity, and peace. Disregarding that power due to the uncertainty of others credence is why we are always and inevitability will have employment in the military.
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SPC (Join to see)
SSG Dear, (I realize this thread is old) we have observed the method of evolution, which is genetic mutation. While it takes quite a long time in the macro-world, in the world of single-celled organisms it has been documented, observed and very real (We could see a strain of polio that is immune to the vaccine). Also, here are three definitions of the word religion:
1:Beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
2: system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine3:personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
Agreeing that these are valid definitions, we see that evolution fits none of these.
1: No one (rationial person) is worshipping evolution. It is completely devoid of any intelligent or cosmic entity that purposefully created our world.
2: Evolution is not a moral code.
3: Granted, I could give you the strongly held beliefs, but at the same time I do not view these as a belief as far as "faith" goes. Research notes are generally available, and I highly doubt they have been forging data.
SSG, and I say with the utmost respect, I feel you've been grossly misinformed on Evolution. You're seeing it as "A fish become a man" whereas that isn't the case at all. Each generation can only take one step in the genetic step from it's parent generation. See it as the evolution of a species of square shaped organisms to circle shaped organisms. Their primary food source are X's, and a genetic mutation occurs in the child species, lets say that the children have corners that are slightly rounded. The slightly rounded squares are better suited to get that food source, therefore eventually we see the slightly rounded squares prevail overtime. This process continues until, the genetic variation for roundness has given those organisms the best chance to survive. This is only a small facit of a much larger gem. The same such scenario can be applied in the now to certain pathogens, who by way of genetic mutation, become immune to vaccines and once tried and tested cures.
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SPC (Join to see)
That escalated quickly. To the original question, as an atheist, I see the posting of religious verses akin to posting of motivational quotes.
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I am agnostic, and throughout my time in the Army, I have been to many chapels on installations for various things such as promotions, EO briefings, etc.. I had no issue with them displaying the cross, Jesus crucified, or even praying. I was, and am, confident that being in the presence of others praying or respecting their religious beliefs in their own way, allowed me to both participate and to understand their beliefs. Like other here, I don't like being forced into someone else's religion. But if you stick your head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't exist or if you confront it head on and denigrate it, then as a soldier, you are violating the principles for which you swore an oath to protect. Freedom of speech and freedom or religion. As far as Islamic and Sharia Law, those religions are designed to suppress the rights and freedoms of others, which is contrary to the oath we all took to the Constitution. As for Athiesm, there is nothing that says you cannot participate in other religions, nor does anything say that you should suppress others who practice their religions. As an Athiest, you have a moral responsibility to believe in yourself, and to allow others to believe in what they want.
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They don't seem to have a problem accepting money on post that states "In God We Trust" and they don't seem to have a problem paying us with such currency. Our nation was founded on the self-evident truth that all men are created being endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights....
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After reading some of the comments on this entire subject, I harken back to some sage words of wisdom that my DS gave us back in '87...don't discuss politics or religion with other Soldiers, only will lead to arguments or a severe case of butthurtedness. Damn boy was he right!
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I apologize for any typo-s as a cast sucks for typing.
first that cadet should be released, if he cant take an order without crying to some civilians he doesn't need to be in the military. this is the military and he was in a government school and building. if it was for his personal motivation he could/should have put it inside.one thing that many ignore on eo/posh its not whether the offender meant it but how its taken by the offended. its not his personal property or in his personal area so he should expect it may not be appreciated by all.
as for the follow on questions, the oath is able to be affirmed without the god reference.
as for those that join an army then are some how surprised when they have to deploy and their" faith" doesn't allow it, they should be given 4 weeks to clear and loss of benefits. this is the army not the salvation army, we fight and fine you don't want to kill that is your choice but don't join and then cry when we send you to Iraq. just don't load your gun, see what the opfor does, send them with the option not to kill.
and religion is hatred, I have seen and heard enough directed at me to see the ugly side of it. its is just finally that those who don't want to hear it have ways or enough of a voice, to get it removed from gov building minus the chapel.
this isn't eo as much as telling people what they should know, consideration for others. I wont play my ac/dc at 70bd cause you may not like it. the same for print and speech.
first that cadet should be released, if he cant take an order without crying to some civilians he doesn't need to be in the military. this is the military and he was in a government school and building. if it was for his personal motivation he could/should have put it inside.one thing that many ignore on eo/posh its not whether the offender meant it but how its taken by the offended. its not his personal property or in his personal area so he should expect it may not be appreciated by all.
as for the follow on questions, the oath is able to be affirmed without the god reference.
as for those that join an army then are some how surprised when they have to deploy and their" faith" doesn't allow it, they should be given 4 weeks to clear and loss of benefits. this is the army not the salvation army, we fight and fine you don't want to kill that is your choice but don't join and then cry when we send you to Iraq. just don't load your gun, see what the opfor does, send them with the option not to kill.
and religion is hatred, I have seen and heard enough directed at me to see the ugly side of it. its is just finally that those who don't want to hear it have ways or enough of a voice, to get it removed from gov building minus the chapel.
this isn't eo as much as telling people what they should know, consideration for others. I wont play my ac/dc at 70bd cause you may not like it. the same for print and speech.
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SSG (Join to see)
CW2 Dixon, by your standards, the cadets who "complained" should also be released since they were the ones to first go "crying".
As far as your comment that religion is hatred, that is just downright disrespectful towards those of faith. The funny thing is EVERYONE, regardless of what they state, has a religion. Yes, atheism IS a religion since it is a BELIEF system. It just doesn't involve a belief in a higher power, just a belief in non-belief, which actually sounds contradictory.
I too have seen the ugly side of differing faiths going after one another, regardless of WHAT the belief is about. I have stated this in another thread but I was persecuted by several atheists and pagans in one of my previous units. One of those was the BN XO, who belittled me in front of others. Is that right just because I'm a Christian? No, and neither is ANY other type of discrimination towards other beliefs. The problem is so many have their certain mindsets or beliefs but refuse to acknowledge others have theirs. I could give a flip what anyone believes, whether it's Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Christian, Satanism, etc. That is THEIR choice. My only concerns are if they try to cram it down someone's throat OR their beliefs directly infringe on the life and liberty of an individual (i.e. human sacrifice, murder, rape).
As far as your comment that religion is hatred, that is just downright disrespectful towards those of faith. The funny thing is EVERYONE, regardless of what they state, has a religion. Yes, atheism IS a religion since it is a BELIEF system. It just doesn't involve a belief in a higher power, just a belief in non-belief, which actually sounds contradictory.
I too have seen the ugly side of differing faiths going after one another, regardless of WHAT the belief is about. I have stated this in another thread but I was persecuted by several atheists and pagans in one of my previous units. One of those was the BN XO, who belittled me in front of others. Is that right just because I'm a Christian? No, and neither is ANY other type of discrimination towards other beliefs. The problem is so many have their certain mindsets or beliefs but refuse to acknowledge others have theirs. I could give a flip what anyone believes, whether it's Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, atheist, agnostic, Christian, Satanism, etc. That is THEIR choice. My only concerns are if they try to cram it down someone's throat OR their beliefs directly infringe on the life and liberty of an individual (i.e. human sacrifice, murder, rape).
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I agree SSGT Brian, this is a touchy subject, but really it should not be. What is the difference between a cadet, or any member of the military, having an inspirational verse from the bible hanging around, and someone having an inspirational quote from Buddha hanging around? The answer nothing. If it inspires and strengthens the person then it is beneficial to the unit as a whole.
I am sure there are as many if not more members in the military encouraging others to party with them. Isn't that proselytizing? So if a person can try to persuade others to follow Satan ie, party, then is it not fair that someone should be able to quietly say I refuse Satan?
I am sure there are as many if not more members in the military encouraging others to party with them. Isn't that proselytizing? So if a person can try to persuade others to follow Satan ie, party, then is it not fair that someone should be able to quietly say I refuse Satan?
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LTC (Join to see)
The difference is that this bible verse was pointing out into the hallway so as to try and covert passersby. If he really wanted inspiration in the morning, it would be INSIDE his room, where HE could read it everyday and not push it on others.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
So if he says thank You Jesus outside his room then that is wrong also.
He is not forcing anyone to read it, therefore it is not considered "pushing it" on others.
He is not forcing anyone to read it, therefore it is not considered "pushing it" on others.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
I guess I am confused Major. It has been a long time since I served, but I was under the understanding that evangelizing was acceptable but proselytizing was forbidden. I speak concerning those in uniform sir.
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