Posted on Aug 10, 2014
Who do you think is responsible for our failure in Iraq?
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Strategically, who do you think the blame falls with? Is it Paul Bremer, GWB, or do you blame some of the senior leaders for screwing OIF up?
Not trying start a debate here, but it's obvious that this war was mishandled and strategically screwed up ... and if you need proof, just look at what ISIS is doing.
Thoughts?
Not trying start a debate here, but it's obvious that this war was mishandled and strategically screwed up ... and if you need proof, just look at what ISIS is doing.
Thoughts?
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF)
Operation New Dawn (OND)
ISIS
Iraq
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 199
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How about blaming the Iraqi's? It is their country, they are ultimately responsible. We left them with the tools and knowledge, they failed on the performance end.
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SSG Gerhard S.
Actually, the Iraqis had a functioning and "mostly" civil society prior to our involvement. It was accomplished through an iron fist dictator who valued order. Even Christians (who weren't rising up) had little to fear. Once an "elected" government was put in place, the Christians began fleeing... they no longer felt secure enough to stay.
The problem with Iraq, and other tribal-religious centric cultures is that they do NOT have a strong "national" identity, and feel they have little to fight for, hundreds of miles away from their tribal-religious sphere. It can be argued that our lack of understanding of this concept is largely responsible for the failure in Iraq, and in MANY other similarly oriented cultures in the Middle-east, and elsewhere. Trying to apply our strong national values to tribal societies is folly, but we continue to do so, to this very day. OUR failure to learn such concepts is partially responsible for the turmoil we now see in so many such places.
The problem with Iraq, and other tribal-religious centric cultures is that they do NOT have a strong "national" identity, and feel they have little to fight for, hundreds of miles away from their tribal-religious sphere. It can be argued that our lack of understanding of this concept is largely responsible for the failure in Iraq, and in MANY other similarly oriented cultures in the Middle-east, and elsewhere. Trying to apply our strong national values to tribal societies is folly, but we continue to do so, to this very day. OUR failure to learn such concepts is partially responsible for the turmoil we now see in so many such places.
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The Iraqi Government has failed in its mission. The only reason why they were stabled was because we were there to keep these nut jobs at bay. Once we left the government had no policies in place on how to deal with this crisis. 7,000 years of fighting.
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Bremmer, Chenney and Rummy screwed up. The original plan was to restore order with an Iraq Army General that was willing to work with us. Leaving it a dictatorship with the expectations to slowly bring peace and democracy would have prevented the power vacuum and resentment that followed the next decade.
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I have already responded to this question but have an update to my original response based on some conversations I have had recently with resources that would know.
Not withstanding that we already had an agreement in place to leave Iraq when we did, the inability to sign a new Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) was a symptom to the real issue as to why we are not there as opposed to being the real issue.
The DOD had a number in mind of the number of personnel it wanted to leave in country to have a concentration of mass to handle any situation that might arise and to ensure the security of our forces. Maliki would not agree to a number anywhere near what we wanted to leave in country because he was worried that it would make him look like an American puppet, especially to his Sunni neighbors to the east in Iran.
His unwillingness to negotiate that number and / or willingness to put our Soldiers in a compromised situation made the lack of a new Status of Forces agreement mute at that point.
So the Iraqi Government in general and Prime Minister al-Maliki in specific were responsible for creating the fractured country, the failed military and the resulting chaos that Iraq finds itself in today.
The shame is that Iraq is a beautiful country with many major historical sites within its borders, it has oil, it has more water between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers then any other Arab country. Before we invaded there was one of the largest concentrations of Christians living in any country in the Middle East. They lived in relative peace under Saddam's rule.
Having spent a year there from 2006 to 2007 with the specific purpose of training the Iraqi military and providing Soldiers to also assist in training its National Police it kills me to see the state of Iraq today. What a disappointment. Unless the new government under al-Abadi can build a true coalition government and is more accommodating for our assistance, we are just spinning our wheels.
Not withstanding that we already had an agreement in place to leave Iraq when we did, the inability to sign a new Status of Forces Agreement (SOFA) was a symptom to the real issue as to why we are not there as opposed to being the real issue.
The DOD had a number in mind of the number of personnel it wanted to leave in country to have a concentration of mass to handle any situation that might arise and to ensure the security of our forces. Maliki would not agree to a number anywhere near what we wanted to leave in country because he was worried that it would make him look like an American puppet, especially to his Sunni neighbors to the east in Iran.
His unwillingness to negotiate that number and / or willingness to put our Soldiers in a compromised situation made the lack of a new Status of Forces agreement mute at that point.
So the Iraqi Government in general and Prime Minister al-Maliki in specific were responsible for creating the fractured country, the failed military and the resulting chaos that Iraq finds itself in today.
The shame is that Iraq is a beautiful country with many major historical sites within its borders, it has oil, it has more water between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers then any other Arab country. Before we invaded there was one of the largest concentrations of Christians living in any country in the Middle East. They lived in relative peace under Saddam's rule.
Having spent a year there from 2006 to 2007 with the specific purpose of training the Iraqi military and providing Soldiers to also assist in training its National Police it kills me to see the state of Iraq today. What a disappointment. Unless the new government under al-Abadi can build a true coalition government and is more accommodating for our assistance, we are just spinning our wheels.
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I think it's a tough to point the finger at one specific cause. But I heard this critique and thought it was dead on: if you're going to go to war, you have to be in it to win it. Undoubtably as servicemen, we are more than willing to do what's necessary, but it's really a critique on the politics and American people. I don't think the politicians were in it to win it. They wanted overnight-quick results.
Being involved in a war, especially like Iraq, is a long term conflict. One of my biggest complaints that really gets under my skin is hearing "the American people are tired of war", "America is war weary" - when less than 1% of the population actually enlists and is directly impacted by war. It's not like WWII or Vietnam where there was a draft and everyone had to contribute, which leads me to think that the typical american doesn't understand what it takes to win a war like this, views any kind of conflict as bad, and thus politicians move to pull us out because that's where the public opinion is to keep their careers.
The political class wasn't in it to win it. When you leave before you've finished, you get Iraq - and subsequently, ISIS.
Being involved in a war, especially like Iraq, is a long term conflict. One of my biggest complaints that really gets under my skin is hearing "the American people are tired of war", "America is war weary" - when less than 1% of the population actually enlists and is directly impacted by war. It's not like WWII or Vietnam where there was a draft and everyone had to contribute, which leads me to think that the typical american doesn't understand what it takes to win a war like this, views any kind of conflict as bad, and thus politicians move to pull us out because that's where the public opinion is to keep their careers.
The political class wasn't in it to win it. When you leave before you've finished, you get Iraq - and subsequently, ISIS.
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The failure came when we thought we could make a change.
1. Gorilla Warfare has never been defeated. It's how America became independent.
2. You can't fight terrorist groups. They are indistinguishable from the civilians. You either go to war with a country, or you don't let any of them into your country...you can't fight a terrorist organization, and keep letting potential terrorists into your own country at the same time....you want to talk about creating the 9/11 incident? We did that by allowing them into our country....the Boston Bombing? We allowed that to happen because the FBI didn't deport them, despite the rules that said we were supposed to a year prior. But it wasn't Politically Correct to deport them.
3. Allowed to much media coverage. No one will doubt that the major media sways public opinion. And when a majority are Liberals, the group of people that blame America if some kid in Africa gets a hangnail, then it's a recipe for a pull out before the jobs is done.
4. The President. Who's platform for election was to pull out, and then when ISIS started to take over, Obama being himself said "I never wanted to pull out of Iraq" (yea he said that).
5. The Generals who would not stand up and tell Obama he is wrong and stupid. I blame all Military leadership who did what Obama told them to do because they were afraid of him, instead of doing the right thing.
-I blame them even now for agreeing to send 4,000 US troops to Liberia, so they can contract the Ebola Virus and bring it back to the states in various strategically placed bases around the country.....Sometimes you just have to smack a child, or else they run you over with bad ideas. And Obama should have been smacked around a long time ago.
1. Gorilla Warfare has never been defeated. It's how America became independent.
2. You can't fight terrorist groups. They are indistinguishable from the civilians. You either go to war with a country, or you don't let any of them into your country...you can't fight a terrorist organization, and keep letting potential terrorists into your own country at the same time....you want to talk about creating the 9/11 incident? We did that by allowing them into our country....the Boston Bombing? We allowed that to happen because the FBI didn't deport them, despite the rules that said we were supposed to a year prior. But it wasn't Politically Correct to deport them.
3. Allowed to much media coverage. No one will doubt that the major media sways public opinion. And when a majority are Liberals, the group of people that blame America if some kid in Africa gets a hangnail, then it's a recipe for a pull out before the jobs is done.
4. The President. Who's platform for election was to pull out, and then when ISIS started to take over, Obama being himself said "I never wanted to pull out of Iraq" (yea he said that).
5. The Generals who would not stand up and tell Obama he is wrong and stupid. I blame all Military leadership who did what Obama told them to do because they were afraid of him, instead of doing the right thing.
-I blame them even now for agreeing to send 4,000 US troops to Liberia, so they can contract the Ebola Virus and bring it back to the states in various strategically placed bases around the country.....Sometimes you just have to smack a child, or else they run you over with bad ideas. And Obama should have been smacked around a long time ago.
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LTC Barry Hull
Cpl Robert Masi Insurgencies have been defeated int he past. One recent example is the British in Malaysia. However, it is almost impossible to defeat an insurgency that has a sanctuary (i.e. Afghanistan with Pakistan). To defeat an insurgency you must prevent sanctuary and divide the guerrilla for their support. the Brits also defeated the insurgency in Northern Ireland. it can be done but a nation must have the will to do it.
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Cpl Robert Masi
I see where you are coming from on this, but you mentioned the obvious hurdles.
1. Prevent Sanctuary - When the people are convinced about which side is right, or their religion demands loyalty, you can't prevent sanctuary.
2. The IRA is a prime example of Guerrilla Warfare in a country. It can't be beat. The IRA was never defeated. Peace was Negotiated....do you really think the Irish would ever accept defeat? That's crazy talk. Irish never say die.
Lots of people think there is a war coming between the Fed and it's citizens...I don't see how the Fed can win. To many Irish in America.
1. Prevent Sanctuary - When the people are convinced about which side is right, or their religion demands loyalty, you can't prevent sanctuary.
2. The IRA is a prime example of Guerrilla Warfare in a country. It can't be beat. The IRA was never defeated. Peace was Negotiated....do you really think the Irish would ever accept defeat? That's crazy talk. Irish never say die.
Lots of people think there is a war coming between the Fed and it's citizens...I don't see how the Fed can win. To many Irish in America.
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US for trusting that they were ready to protect their own country and theirs for not using what we taught them. Some thing tells me they do not have a strong NCO core.
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Donald Rumsfeld! When he was asked by the media how he planned to catch Saddam Hussein he answered "To catch a big fish, you must cast a big net". Then we began searching every home in the country, which turned most of the population against us - even people that hated Saddam! Brigade commanders were conducting raids, then eventually "cordon searches" (raids under a more palatable name). Interestingly enough when we caught Saddam Hussein it was because someone told us where he was hiding. The searches didn't produce anything. If someone asked me to come up with a sure fire way to turn Iraqi hearts and minds against us, I would have come up with Rumsfeld's plan.
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What I say may be hurtful to some vets or SMs, so I apologize in advance, but the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are absolute failures that never should have started. There was no good reason to go into Iraq, but our government struck while the iron was hot, while we all still demanded blood. Now, we DID do our best to give them every chance in the world to succeed, but clearly they will not. Their government is a failure and it should be allowed to fail. We should never again send one American man or woman to Iraq.
Onto Afghanistan, my war. What, just what in the hell are we doing there? Afghanistan is so rural and so backwards that it cannot be easily given a decent democratic government like we did for Iraq. The people in one village did not give a hoot in hell about the people just a few miles down the river, and they certainly did not care about some phantom government on the other side of the country in Kabul. Almost everywhere I went, if you took away the guns, vehicles, and very limited electricity, it would look exactly like it did 800 years ago. It upset me to admit it, but nothing we have accomplished there is going to last (my unit handed off Now-Zad to the ANA last summer, and it's already fallen). We need to pull out now and, like Iraq, never again set foot in the graveyard of empires.
That's my piece. The Middle East is not our fight. No troops or bases or foreign aid should go to any of those countries, or any country in the world, for that matter. The only connections we should have are trade.
Onto Afghanistan, my war. What, just what in the hell are we doing there? Afghanistan is so rural and so backwards that it cannot be easily given a decent democratic government like we did for Iraq. The people in one village did not give a hoot in hell about the people just a few miles down the river, and they certainly did not care about some phantom government on the other side of the country in Kabul. Almost everywhere I went, if you took away the guns, vehicles, and very limited electricity, it would look exactly like it did 800 years ago. It upset me to admit it, but nothing we have accomplished there is going to last (my unit handed off Now-Zad to the ANA last summer, and it's already fallen). We need to pull out now and, like Iraq, never again set foot in the graveyard of empires.
That's my piece. The Middle East is not our fight. No troops or bases or foreign aid should go to any of those countries, or any country in the world, for that matter. The only connections we should have are trade.
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LTC Barry Hull
As I recall, we went into Afganistan to hit Al Queda. Remeber, those guys that dropped the WTC and killed about 2000 innocent civilians? That is all the justification I need. Our mistake there was not hunting them down in Northern Pakistan but we needed them to secure our logistical LOCs. And you are right, Afghanistan is a tough nut. Truly the graveyard of Empires.
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PO1 Jose Roman
+ Dismantle the Taliban from the government was a big deal too.
Also note that Afghanistan just held its first democratic election. I'll consider that a win.
Also note that Afghanistan just held its first democratic election. I'll consider that a win.
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SSG Gerhard S.
PO1, Respectfully, democratic elections are nearly meaningless in tribal societies. The Iraqi's, the Egyptians and others have proven that. An election may sound good on the surface, but history has shown, particularly in Afghanistan, that they are "easy to invade, but difficult to leave". Certainly, there are few who will argue that Afghanistan reverts even more quickly than Iraq has. Also... the Taliban is still there, ready to fill the power vacuum when we are gone.
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These were major blunders in no particular order of importance but they all compound and feed into one another.
#1 Administration calling the Iraqi "Mission Accomplished" before its time
#2 The CPA disbanding the Iraqi Army and Debaathication of the govt. (Sending home everyone that knew how to run the place and bringing in a bunch of carpetbaggers)
#3 Fighting a war on the cheap, not being 100% committed to an end game/exit strategy
#4 NOT having an exit strategy or thorough end game in place
#5 Believing Iraq, left in shambles would latch on to a democratic govt at gun point
#6 Privatizing the economy then letting foreign investors in with immunity of the law and no taxes to pay back to the govt
#7 Gross mismanagement of billion of US tax dollars for reconstruction
#8 ignoring ethnic divisions in the country
#1 Administration calling the Iraqi "Mission Accomplished" before its time
#2 The CPA disbanding the Iraqi Army and Debaathication of the govt. (Sending home everyone that knew how to run the place and bringing in a bunch of carpetbaggers)
#3 Fighting a war on the cheap, not being 100% committed to an end game/exit strategy
#4 NOT having an exit strategy or thorough end game in place
#5 Believing Iraq, left in shambles would latch on to a democratic govt at gun point
#6 Privatizing the economy then letting foreign investors in with immunity of the law and no taxes to pay back to the govt
#7 Gross mismanagement of billion of US tax dollars for reconstruction
#8 ignoring ethnic divisions in the country
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