Posted on Aug 10, 2014
Who do you think is responsible for our failure in Iraq?
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Strategically, who do you think the blame falls with? Is it Paul Bremer, GWB, or do you blame some of the senior leaders for screwing OIF up?
Not trying start a debate here, but it's obvious that this war was mishandled and strategically screwed up ... and if you need proof, just look at what ISIS is doing.
Thoughts?
Not trying start a debate here, but it's obvious that this war was mishandled and strategically screwed up ... and if you need proof, just look at what ISIS is doing.
Thoughts?
Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF)
Operation New Dawn (OND)
ISIS
Iraq
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 199
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CPT (Join to see)
Bremer or Bush, really? I think any sane person realizes that when those two left their office, things were stable but when they left, the people left in place were either ignorant or so apathetic that they allowed...supported...this mess.
Bremer or Bush, really? I think any sane person realizes that when those two left their office, things were stable but when they left, the people left in place were either ignorant or so apathetic that they allowed...supported...this mess.
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MSG Brad Sand
CSM,
If you were the person in this office, would we have withdrawn all of our troops in the manner and way they were pulled out? We both know that a leader leads, and we have been missing this. The American people wanted us out, got it, but we needed a person to do the hard right? I think if either of us were in charge, we could have made a transition that get the American public happy AND kept the wheels from coming off?
If you were the person in this office, would we have withdrawn all of our troops in the manner and way they were pulled out? We both know that a leader leads, and we have been missing this. The American people wanted us out, got it, but we needed a person to do the hard right? I think if either of us were in charge, we could have made a transition that get the American public happy AND kept the wheels from coming off?
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Cpl Robert Masi
The problem also occurs with the American people. Due to their ADD and the media taking advantage of this fact, I saw a major shift before and after my Iraq deployment. When I left, everyone was gungho. After training and deployment, I saw the true resolve of the civilians in any effort that takes time and sacrifice.....they have no resolve.
If it isn't quick and easy, they (Americans as a whole) don't have the stomach to see a job through. Like kids playing video games and putting in cheat codes so they don't have to put in the time to learn how to master the game. And what's funny, is that they are safe at home, while others are doing the fighting. Because of that, I can see why we are losing our freedoms with every 'disaster' in America. Connecticut is already prepared to call Marshall Law if 1 case of Ebola occurs in that state.
I think a lot of our problems today prove to stem from that. We have an emotionally fragile people that are easily manipulated, and led around by their nose. And what's worse is that politicians know exactly how to take advantage of that. Like Hitler knew how to take advantage of that.
If it isn't quick and easy, they (Americans as a whole) don't have the stomach to see a job through. Like kids playing video games and putting in cheat codes so they don't have to put in the time to learn how to master the game. And what's funny, is that they are safe at home, while others are doing the fighting. Because of that, I can see why we are losing our freedoms with every 'disaster' in America. Connecticut is already prepared to call Marshall Law if 1 case of Ebola occurs in that state.
I think a lot of our problems today prove to stem from that. We have an emotionally fragile people that are easily manipulated, and led around by their nose. And what's worse is that politicians know exactly how to take advantage of that. Like Hitler knew how to take advantage of that.
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CSM William Payne
General George Washington set the precedence during the American Revolution that the the Continental Army / now US Military is subservient to the elected members of government. In otherwords we serve at the leisure of the American people. The people decide our policy by the people we / they elect for office and in my opinion we have been doing a piss poor job of that recently on both sides of the aisle. Unfortunately we keep electing the same people over and over again and then wonder why things stay dysfunctional and never change. To paraphrase one of our recent government officials we deal with the president we have, not the one we wish we had. As voters, and that is the only voice we in the military really have in this game, some times we win, some times we lose. I served eight presidents over my career; Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan (2), Bush 41, Clinton (2), Bush 43 (2) and Obama (2). I didn't vote for a number of these individuals. But as a serving enlisted member of the military I swore an oath to obey the POTUS and the officers appointed over me. The original premise of this thread was who do you hold most resposible for the situation we find ourselves in Iraq today. There is more than enough blame to go around for both parties, so either all as Americans we are all to blame by proxy or you can place the blame where it belongs. After fighting the two longest wars in the history of the United States, the American people were not going to support a long time occupation of Iraq or Afhanistan. This is not the United States after World War II or even Korea. I agree with Cpl Masi above, we as Americans have no patience, we have become a nation of the latest sound bytes in the latest news cycle. Just look at the mass hysteria going on over Ebola right now. You have a must greater chance of being struck by lightning than being exposed to Ebola. We are afraid of our own shadows and we want the government to protect us from everything. Mistakes were made from start to finish, but buttom line up front, I'll stick to my original premiss, no matter what we did, Maliki dropped the ball on this. Thank you for your service to our country.
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MSG Brad Sand
1SG (Join to see)
Thank you for the thoughtful and detailed explanation on why you disagree and voted my statement down. I while I do see your point about cowards not having faith in their convictions, we do defend their rights to say nothing as well.
Thank you for the thoughtful and detailed explanation on why you disagree and voted my statement down. I while I do see your point about cowards not having faith in their convictions, we do defend their rights to say nothing as well.
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We have not failed, we pulled back for them to step forward.Now as allies we support them.Like the French did with us a long time ago.
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We should have never went to Iraq in the first place. Going to Iraq had nothing to do with our freedom or our constitution. But, putting that aside the Iraqi government is to blame they don't want freedom because they are to lazy to defend it themselves.
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Cpl Ian Schuelke
I am not so sure its laziness as it is that Americas brand of freedom only works here. every other form of government including those of our closest allies doesn't follow our version. Most likely because we got to skip the Magna Carts phase and start with a blank slate, which is highly unlikely if impossible anywhere else. Post communism Russia is in my opinion a classic example.
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Many may say the Iraqi Government, however General Colin Powell actually admitted in his book "It Worked For Me" that we entered Iraq based on false information and with no long term plan. Don't get me wrong, the Iraqi goverenment needs to take accountability for their lack of action however, a.) democracy was not created in one night or even in 10 years, and b.) poor planning and lack of correct information set us up for failure from the beginning.
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SSgt (Join to see)
The only problem with that is that there are now reports that suggest Saddam shipped those elusive WMDs across the boarder into Syria.
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CPT Robert Skinner
Mr. Young,
I agree totally, I said basically the same thing on another post about General Powell and was trashed for stating basically the same thing.
I agree totally, I said basically the same thing on another post about General Powell and was trashed for stating basically the same thing.
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I don't think it's a question of "Who" (FYI proper English - "Whom" not "Who". Sorry kind of a nerd in that aspect.), but really a laundry list of failures that have brought Iraq to this breaking point.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
When the Afghans were fighting the Russians they received covert help from the USG. After they had fought and won against the Russians they requested aid from the USG to rebuild their country. The USG wiped their hands and said thanks for beating the Russians but you are not our responsibility. The Afghans received "aid" from an unlikely ally, bin Laden, and started down a very perilous path that culminated in OEF.
The problem is the USG is willing to help these countries fight and win but not rebuild. In the rebuilding is where we earn our bread and butter. Without proper infrastructure and a bridge to a better life people will turn to just about anything to make a living. Drugs (growing and distribution), arms dealing, protection, slavery, etc. People need to fill their basic needs and will go to great lengths to fill them.
In my opinion the USG should have stayed the course, no matter how unpopular, and rebuilt the Government of Iraq. Without further international aid the situation will only get worse. I understand the reason for ending an "unpopular" war but the reality is there really never is an end. We are still oin Japan, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc.
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
When the Afghans were fighting the Russians they received covert help from the USG. After they had fought and won against the Russians they requested aid from the USG to rebuild their country. The USG wiped their hands and said thanks for beating the Russians but you are not our responsibility. The Afghans received "aid" from an unlikely ally, bin Laden, and started down a very perilous path that culminated in OEF.
The problem is the USG is willing to help these countries fight and win but not rebuild. In the rebuilding is where we earn our bread and butter. Without proper infrastructure and a bridge to a better life people will turn to just about anything to make a living. Drugs (growing and distribution), arms dealing, protection, slavery, etc. People need to fill their basic needs and will go to great lengths to fill them.
In my opinion the USG should have stayed the course, no matter how unpopular, and rebuilt the Government of Iraq. Without further international aid the situation will only get worse. I understand the reason for ending an "unpopular" war but the reality is there really never is an end. We are still oin Japan, Germany, Spain, Italy, etc.
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Cpl Christopher Allen-Shinn
In terms of rebuilding (or the failure to finish that job) Iraq, I think that you're on point. However, on the question of blame for the failure of the Iraqi military to hold up against ISIS, I blame the Iraqi government for its corrupt, sectarian, and short-sighted decisions. They tore down the professionalism that the US and our allies had built up, and sowed the seeds of discord that the extremists have exploited masterfully. Blame President Obama for prioritizing withdrawal if you must, but realize that (1) that's what most Americans wanted, (2) the 2003 invasion occurred during the GWB administration, and (3) the agreement to withdraw also was made by the GWB administration.
Most Americans are war weary after 13 years of conflict, our economy seems unable to sustain a major war, and we definitely can't sustain another multi-generational commitment to rebuild a country as we did in Europe and Japan after WWII. Like it or not, economically I believe that we should prioritize rebuilding our domestic infrastructure, revitalizing our education system & economy, and maintaining the strength of our Armed Forces. Even if you disagree with me politically, I suspect that you'd agree that our economy mandates a different alignment of our military resources that doesn't include intense nation-building or a major war.
Most Americans are war weary after 13 years of conflict, our economy seems unable to sustain a major war, and we definitely can't sustain another multi-generational commitment to rebuild a country as we did in Europe and Japan after WWII. Like it or not, economically I believe that we should prioritize rebuilding our domestic infrastructure, revitalizing our education system & economy, and maintaining the strength of our Armed Forces. Even if you disagree with me politically, I suspect that you'd agree that our economy mandates a different alignment of our military resources that doesn't include intense nation-building or a major war.
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The problem is in thinking that we could change centuries of ingrained behavior.
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SGT Chris Birkinbine
Further evidence, (in my opinion) of a far different social state between Germany and Iraq is the near non-exsistance of insurgency after occupation in Germany versus an extremely high casualty rate in Iraq because of Insurgency. You can spend 40 years in Iraq, and I don't believe you would see the end of hostilities.
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LTC Paul Labrador
Ever hear of the SS Werewolves? They were active, just not very widespread.
And in counterpoint to your assertion that you cannot bring stability after a very bloody insrugency, read the history of the Philippines after the Spanish-American War. The insurgency there was every bit as bloody and bitter as the one in Iraq. Yet we set about the exact same game plan as we did in Iraq (public works, build schools, provide overall safety and security), and today the Philippines is one of our strongest allies in Asia. The only difference is that we showed long term committement in the Philippines.
And in counterpoint to your assertion that you cannot bring stability after a very bloody insrugency, read the history of the Philippines after the Spanish-American War. The insurgency there was every bit as bloody and bitter as the one in Iraq. Yet we set about the exact same game plan as we did in Iraq (public works, build schools, provide overall safety and security), and today the Philippines is one of our strongest allies in Asia. The only difference is that we showed long term committement in the Philippines.
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SGT Chris Birkinbine
Nope never heard of them. Also am not aware of the history of the Philippines. I will withhold any further comments until I go read up on those, thanks for the info. Be back later, possibly with new opinion. :D
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SGT Chris Birkinbine
LTC Paul Labrador Just finished reading a lot about SS Werewolves. They were not an insurgency, they were a commando unit developed to operate behind enemy lines during the war, not to continue underground operations after allied forces took over. Not a single Allied troop was killed after german surrender, whereas in Iraq many more were killed on the order of 20 to 1 after occupation. This is a HUGE difference, and is exactly what I was referring to. My info comes from the US Department of State just as an FYI. Back later after reading up on Philippines. Good discussion.
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I'm not so sure that the whole thing was a failure I believe we were doing some pretty good things and having some advancement in the country but I also think that our all mighty leader wanted to pull all our troops out too quick and that's where the debacle is coming from.
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CPT (Join to see)
True. We DID do some great things over there to help advance the government and attempt to bring peace and stability to the nation. Unfortunately, I think we left too early and now all our gains have been practically wiped out.
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MSG Bill DeSouza
We should not have been there at all. This was an utter waste in the end and could have been handled with far better long term outlook IF the powers that be thought before they acted. We had only just begun action in Afghanistan and rightly should have finished with that before even considering Iraq. We now know that the whole thing was a con. Sorry, but can you tell I'm just a bit bitter?
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No foreign strategy can undo mindset of brainwashed, ideology infused, too weak and scared to think for themselves, determined to propagate their cause by absolutely any and all means necessary... MOBS
These are the true 21st century living ZOMBIES that do not know, nor understand anything else in this world. And you know the only way to stop those zombies, right? Yes, only 1 way unfortunately.
To paraphrase Patton: no bastard ever won the war by dying for his country (or cause). He won it by having the other bastard dying for his country (or cause). We're the bastards. Our cause is the country. They're the other bastards. Their cause is Islamic caliphate. That's all I got to say here
These are the true 21st century living ZOMBIES that do not know, nor understand anything else in this world. And you know the only way to stop those zombies, right? Yes, only 1 way unfortunately.
To paraphrase Patton: no bastard ever won the war by dying for his country (or cause). He won it by having the other bastard dying for his country (or cause). We're the bastards. Our cause is the country. They're the other bastards. Their cause is Islamic caliphate. That's all I got to say here
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Hindsight is 20/20, looking back, we should have not went to war in Iraq. We did, so there is nothing that can be done to change that. So, I blame GWB for starting an unnecessary war to begin with.
With that being said, I blame the current president for the failure of Iraq. The decision to pull out all troops by a certain time, based solely on political points, was a huge mistake by the president. It is easy to convince the public it was a right decision when you keep firing senior military leaders until they all agree with your political point of view.
I knew when the decision was made to pull the troops out of Iraq was made that it was a mistake. Terrorists are patient, and knowing Iraq had such a fragile government made it easy for them to exploit the weakness of the government, which was the three differing factions trying to run it as one.
Once the terrorists were able to get the differing factions in the government fighting each other, it made it easier for security to break down.
I put all the blame on the failure of Iraq with President Obama and then Secretary of State Clinton.
With that being said, I blame the current president for the failure of Iraq. The decision to pull out all troops by a certain time, based solely on political points, was a huge mistake by the president. It is easy to convince the public it was a right decision when you keep firing senior military leaders until they all agree with your political point of view.
I knew when the decision was made to pull the troops out of Iraq was made that it was a mistake. Terrorists are patient, and knowing Iraq had such a fragile government made it easy for them to exploit the weakness of the government, which was the three differing factions trying to run it as one.
Once the terrorists were able to get the differing factions in the government fighting each other, it made it easier for security to break down.
I put all the blame on the failure of Iraq with President Obama and then Secretary of State Clinton.
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MSgt (Join to see)
LCpl Steve Wininger and SSgt James Sciortino You make very valid points. I will admit I let my emotions fog my thinking once in awhile.
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LCpl Steve Wininger
Not a problem MSgt (Join to see) You had valid points also. Besides, this is an emotional subject, especially to those who served in Iraq. If I have said anything that has offended anyone, I do seriously apologize.
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SSgt James Sciortino
Thanks MSgt Borders. This Iraq thing is hard to watch right now. So many young men and women were lost fighting to give the Iraqi people a chance at freedom. Wish I could believe air strikes are going to stop the collapse, but I think we are doing the only thing this country has the stomach for right now. Many countries have helped us in the Middle East but any real ground force, even from the UN, would be made up in majority by the United States. Not sure the country is set to take that ride again.
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