Posted on Nov 14, 2015
Whose hands will be awash in the blood of the terrorist attacks in Paris?
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http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/14/paris-terror-attacks-attackers-dead-mass-killing-live-updates
The simple answer is the perpetrators whomever they may be. However, few will be satisfied with the simple answer, will they?
The popular approach of applying critical theory will demand that we look to the motivations of the perpetrators much as other crimes are mitigated by assigning blame to a turbulent childhood or social injustice.
I suspect that blame will eventually land on the shores of the United States where the ideologues will scramble to pass it on to George Bush. After all, ISIS wouldn't even exist if he hadn't meddled in the Middle East, would it?
To be fair, I had my misgivings when he decided to invade Iraq. I had no problem with the legal issues involved. Sadaam had violated the cease fire. The whole question of WMDs, at least for me, was an unnecessary canard. However, surprise of surprises, there were signs of progress. The first free elections in Iraq were stunning to behold if you actually bothered to look. Despite threats, the people participated in numbers that shamed America's routinely tepid turnout. Iraqis displayed their badges of having voted with great pride. No, the job wasn't complete. The nascent movement towards self government had a long way to go, but it was a beginning.
Sadly, as so often is the case, America lacked the will to see the job done. No, I'm not going to blame President Obama. He is a pale reflection of America's popular opinion. We were tired of Iraq and very tired of bearing the expense and sacrifice. Much like we abandoned Russia to the Bolsheviks following WWI and Vietnam to the communists following the victory there, we abandoned the Iraqis long before they were capable of governing themselves, and ISIS arose.
So, how will we react if and when the world points the finger at us?
The simple answer is the perpetrators whomever they may be. However, few will be satisfied with the simple answer, will they?
The popular approach of applying critical theory will demand that we look to the motivations of the perpetrators much as other crimes are mitigated by assigning blame to a turbulent childhood or social injustice.
I suspect that blame will eventually land on the shores of the United States where the ideologues will scramble to pass it on to George Bush. After all, ISIS wouldn't even exist if he hadn't meddled in the Middle East, would it?
To be fair, I had my misgivings when he decided to invade Iraq. I had no problem with the legal issues involved. Sadaam had violated the cease fire. The whole question of WMDs, at least for me, was an unnecessary canard. However, surprise of surprises, there were signs of progress. The first free elections in Iraq were stunning to behold if you actually bothered to look. Despite threats, the people participated in numbers that shamed America's routinely tepid turnout. Iraqis displayed their badges of having voted with great pride. No, the job wasn't complete. The nascent movement towards self government had a long way to go, but it was a beginning.
Sadly, as so often is the case, America lacked the will to see the job done. No, I'm not going to blame President Obama. He is a pale reflection of America's popular opinion. We were tired of Iraq and very tired of bearing the expense and sacrifice. Much like we abandoned Russia to the Bolsheviks following WWI and Vietnam to the communists following the victory there, we abandoned the Iraqis long before they were capable of governing themselves, and ISIS arose.
So, how will we react if and when the world points the finger at us?
Terrorism
Paris
Edited 10 y ago
Posted 10 y ago
Responses: 11
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CPT Jack Durish, I don't agree that it is accurate to blame Bush for ISIS under any stretch of the imagination. The precursor of ISIS, AQI, had been thoroughly defeated during the Anbar Awakening. Their bloodthirsty ways had been experienced by the Sunnis, who then joined with us to exterminate them in detail.
It was Obama's retreat from Iraq before Iraq was ready to govern and defend itself independently that allowed the remnants of AQI to re-form itself into ISIS.
Obama's failure to back the Syrian rebels early on and to arm the Kurds allowed ISIS to expand in Syria and to make attacks back into Iraq. And Obama's failure to take out ISIS when they were in massed columns in the desert during their assault into Iraq, and again when they drove captured American weapons and vehicles back into their home bases in Syria.
And it is not accurate IMHO to blame American war weariness for Obama's failure to act in a timely manner; that is what leadership is for - to explain the situation and to lead the people to support clearly laid out policies. The American people would have followed a strong leader just as they backed Bush after 9/11.
Unfortunately, Obama lacks strategic vision and appears to be terminally indecisive. That is the reason for the rise of ISIS, IMHO.
It was Obama's retreat from Iraq before Iraq was ready to govern and defend itself independently that allowed the remnants of AQI to re-form itself into ISIS.
Obama's failure to back the Syrian rebels early on and to arm the Kurds allowed ISIS to expand in Syria and to make attacks back into Iraq. And Obama's failure to take out ISIS when they were in massed columns in the desert during their assault into Iraq, and again when they drove captured American weapons and vehicles back into their home bases in Syria.
And it is not accurate IMHO to blame American war weariness for Obama's failure to act in a timely manner; that is what leadership is for - to explain the situation and to lead the people to support clearly laid out policies. The American people would have followed a strong leader just as they backed Bush after 9/11.
Unfortunately, Obama lacks strategic vision and appears to be terminally indecisive. That is the reason for the rise of ISIS, IMHO.
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COL Ted Mc
Capt Seid Waddell - Captain; Yes I did read the link. Words without action are only words. Mr. Bush (with the support of approximately 6% of "Republicans") is now an outlier as far as the next occupant of the Oval Office is concerned. If the GOP is really serious, let's see the text of the resolution declaring that a state of war exists between the US and ISIS (or even one that specifically authorizes the President of the United States of America to commit WHATEVER military forces are deemed needed to the fight [and commits "Congress" to paying the full costs of the fight {whatever those costs are}]).
The Republican "have control" of the House of Representatives so they should be able to pass resolutions to that effect even if all the Democrats vote against them in the House of Representatives. So if the Republicans pass the resolution in the House and ALL of them vote for it in the Senate (even if it fails there), that will establish their bona fides and I will actually believe that they are seriously intending to do something more than bring down Mr. Obama.
The Republican "have control" of the House of Representatives so they should be able to pass resolutions to that effect even if all the Democrats vote against them in the House of Representatives. So if the Republicans pass the resolution in the House and ALL of them vote for it in the Senate (even if it fails there), that will establish their bona fides and I will actually believe that they are seriously intending to do something more than bring down Mr. Obama.
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SSG Michael Scott
Obama took the troops out of Iraq, and he, obama opened the door for ISIS. Period.
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Capt Seid Waddell
SSG Michael Scott, exactly. AQI had been soundly defeated during the Anbar Awakening, and Obama pulled out our troops prematurely and allowed the remnants of AQI to re-form into ISIS. He subsequently sat on his hands and watched as they grew in power and spread throughout the region.
Obama's reluctance to use military force in Iraq to maintain our successes there has created conditions in which much greater military force will be needed throughout the ME and Africa. He is this century's Neville Chamberlain.
Obama's reluctance to use military force in Iraq to maintain our successes there has created conditions in which much greater military force will be needed throughout the ME and Africa. He is this century's Neville Chamberlain.
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ISIS for one... I wonder how many Syrians were involved? I know the French have confirmed one Syrian passport.
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CPT Jack Durish
But won't the world begin to ask themselves would there even be an ISIS if we hadn't meddled in the Middle East?
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COL Ted Mc
SSgt Alex Robinson - Staff; Confirming a passport doesn't mean as much as it used to mean - not with the international market in passports.
BTW "Syrian passports" are selling at a premium right now because they get you OUT of Syria.
BTW "Syrian passports" are selling at a premium right now because they get you OUT of Syria.
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CPT Jack Durish
I'm pretty sure our administration will, just as you predict, blame Bush. I also suspect that our President will once again resolve to stand by the Muslim Brotherhood while making only token gestures to take the fight to the terrorists (if he will even use the word terrorist).
I'm pretty sure our administration will, just as you predict, blame Bush. I also suspect that our President will once again resolve to stand by the Muslim Brotherhood while making only token gestures to take the fight to the terrorists (if he will even use the word terrorist).
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There are bad people who do bad things and we need to continue addressing that, however we also need to be careful not to divide the world into us and them based on geography or religion. No one suffers more at the hands of Islamic extremists than Muslims. The people fleeing war in the Middle East are victims of terrorism just like the people of Paris today or the people of New York after 9/11.
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SSG (Join to see)
CPT Jack Durish - I haven't seen any evidence that refugees had anything to do with what happened in Paris. I have read a little about the rise in crime in refugee areas, one of the main things I learned is that it's complex.
It's not an excuse to turn our backs on these people.
It's not an excuse to turn our backs on these people.
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CPT Jack Durish
SSG (Join to see) - It's best to wait before making assertions. So far it's been demonstrated that one of the Paris attackers infiltrated France as a Refugee. Now that another has been captured we may learn more. Patience, always patience...
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SSG (Join to see)
CPT Jack Durish - If your argument is that everyone needs to do a better job vetting refugees to weed out potentially violent extremists, that's possible. At the same time it's my understanding that the US has admitted over 750K refugees from around the world since 9/11 and not one of them has ever been charged with terrorism.
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CPT Jack Durish
SSG (Join to see) - The FBI has already announced that they don't have the resources to vet the refugees. And yes, refugees have come to America that have not only been peaceful, but also contributed significantly to the nation. But those have come from places that were caught up in traditional wars and revolutions. Vietnam and Cuba are notable examples. Then we have other examples. How about the Boston Bombers. Ah yes. Muslim terrorists.
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CPT Jack Durish - Captain; The governmental reaction is a really good example of poor information management.
One of the first things that I would have done was to release the "dying statement" of one of the perpetrators that was to the effect that they were planning on holding the hostages to extort money and that it all went awry because of the incompetence of the person who was supposedly a "master bomb maker".
It's extremely difficult to point a sole finger of blame at the United States of America for the situation in the Middle East. (Which doesn't mean that people won't try.) Even pointing out how and when the US government screwed the pooch isn't going to be good enough (although it is necessary to do so to prevent it happening again).
When you have a bunch of murderous sociopaths who actually believe in their own delusions then you are going to get a bunch of murderous sociopaths actually acting on their own delusions. These people can be VERY difficult to detect and if you can't detect them you have one hell of a time "deterring" them.
One of the first things that I would have done was to release the "dying statement" of one of the perpetrators that was to the effect that they were planning on holding the hostages to extort money and that it all went awry because of the incompetence of the person who was supposedly a "master bomb maker".
It's extremely difficult to point a sole finger of blame at the United States of America for the situation in the Middle East. (Which doesn't mean that people won't try.) Even pointing out how and when the US government screwed the pooch isn't going to be good enough (although it is necessary to do so to prevent it happening again).
When you have a bunch of murderous sociopaths who actually believe in their own delusions then you are going to get a bunch of murderous sociopaths actually acting on their own delusions. These people can be VERY difficult to detect and if you can't detect them you have one hell of a time "deterring" them.
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CPT Jack Durish
COL Ted Mc - Oh, you have no idea how tempting it is to applaud your suggestion. It makes me quiver. Sadly though I am a firm believer in the rule of law and I cannot support ex post facto laws. However, take a piece of real estate, deed it to them, give them sovereignty over it and then prosecute the bejesus out of them for every act of barbarism they commit thereafter. I could easily get behind that. Oh, and the t-shirt sounds good too...
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COL Ted Mc
CPT Jack Durish - Captain; We don't need to do anything as complicated as that, just recognize "The Islamic State" as a country as it is right now.
Of course, you would staple a diplomatic note to that recognition saying that any attack by "The Islamic State" against any NATO country would trigger the full rigour of the NATO treaty (including full prosecutions and punishment under the laws respecting war crimes) and another saying that any attack by "The Islamic State" that killed or injured an American would be treated as a "causus belli" and result in the immediate creation of a state of war between the United States of America and "The Islamic State" (including full prosecutions and punishment under the laws respecting war crimes).
Of course, you would staple a diplomatic note to that recognition saying that any attack by "The Islamic State" against any NATO country would trigger the full rigour of the NATO treaty (including full prosecutions and punishment under the laws respecting war crimes) and another saying that any attack by "The Islamic State" that killed or injured an American would be treated as a "causus belli" and result in the immediate creation of a state of war between the United States of America and "The Islamic State" (including full prosecutions and punishment under the laws respecting war crimes).
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CPT Jack Durish
COL Ted Mc - Oh, now I get it. In other words, yours is a plan that remove the decision making from the President's hands and put it in ISIS's hands. I like it. They seem far more capable of making decisions than he.
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COL Ted Mc
CPT Jack Durish - Captain; My proposal doesn't remove the decision making power from the hands of anyone - it simply moves the whole situation inside known, understood, and accepted parameters of existing international law.
If ISIS wants to have their own country (and they say that they do) then why not let them have the country that they already control?
If ISIS want's to declare war on the world (and they say that they do) then why not let them and also let them deal with the consequences.
On top of that, dealing with a war against a geographic entity is something that the Arab world is going to find a whole lot less objectionable than dealing with a war against a "religious" entity. There is a whole lot of entrenched self-interest in the Middle East that would be seriously threatened (read as "a lot of rich people would be killed") by an expansion of "The Islamic State".
PS - The French government has already declared that ISIS has "committed an act of war" (which is, since non-state groups cannot engage in "war") a tacit recognition of "The Islamic State" as a government, so the stage has already been set to invoke the provisions of Article 5 of the NATO treaty.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm
If ISIS wants to have their own country (and they say that they do) then why not let them have the country that they already control?
If ISIS want's to declare war on the world (and they say that they do) then why not let them and also let them deal with the consequences.
On top of that, dealing with a war against a geographic entity is something that the Arab world is going to find a whole lot less objectionable than dealing with a war against a "religious" entity. There is a whole lot of entrenched self-interest in the Middle East that would be seriously threatened (read as "a lot of rich people would be killed") by an expansion of "The Islamic State".
PS - The French government has already declared that ISIS has "committed an act of war" (which is, since non-state groups cannot engage in "war") a tacit recognition of "The Islamic State" as a government, so the stage has already been set to invoke the provisions of Article 5 of the NATO treaty.
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm
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CPT Jack Durish
As a brief respite from all the doom and gloom, I offer this link
From "The Telegraph"
#3, #5, #22, and #36, #44, and #60
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/comedians/funny-jokes/
As a brief respite from all the doom and gloom, I offer this link
From "The Telegraph"
#3, #5, #22, and #36, #44, and #60
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comedy/comedians/funny-jokes/
100 funny jokes by 100 comedians
Martin Chilton counts down 100 great jokes by 100 great comedians.
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CPT Jack Durish "Sadaam had violated the cease fire. The whole question of WMDs, at least for me, was an unnecessary canard."
Indeed.
I'm weary of war. I'm tired of acting as the "police of the world" as I said on another thread, France spent years fighting us diplomatically, and now that they have "skin in the game" I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that they retaliated so quickly.
I wish them well... and hope we "take the high road" politically and offer aid where we can.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/11/15/paris-terrorist-attacks-airstrikes/75837088/
Indeed.
I'm weary of war. I'm tired of acting as the "police of the world" as I said on another thread, France spent years fighting us diplomatically, and now that they have "skin in the game" I'm pleasantly surprised to hear that they retaliated so quickly.
I wish them well... and hope we "take the high road" politically and offer aid where we can.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2015/11/15/paris-terrorist-attacks-airstrikes/75837088/
'Massive' French airstrikes hit Islamic State to retaliate for attacks
French officials on Sunday announced "massive" retaliatory airstrikes against Islamic State sites in Syria, the Associated Press reported, citing French defense officials who said the airstrikes destroyed two
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Obama says he is God, mocks the Bible
Obama read Psalm 46 and attributed what was read to himself, PROCLAIMING HIMSELF AS GOD. Here are a few facts that really drive home that point. At the 9/11 ...
Obama says he is God, mocks the Bible https://youtu.be/eY984VuVk_Q
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The problem is that we did not follow FDRs and the War Departments Doctrine. We were to worried about offending someone. Vietnam Doctrine didn't work then, it didn't work now. You want to send the US Military in to do a job? Then let them do it. If we tried to run WWII like this; we would have been divided in half. Wake up.
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CPT Jack Durish
I don't think the French or the world sees this as an American caused problem, if anything they are now looking for American help. Some will point the finger, ignore those who do and let's focus on kicking Daesh butt.
I don't think the French or the world sees this as an American caused problem, if anything they are now looking for American help. Some will point the finger, ignore those who do and let's focus on kicking Daesh butt.
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MCPO Roger Collins
We are sending lots of people over to assist as we speak, Hope they leave a few to protect us. I really have to wonder what value the tracking people with terrorist ties means. Whoever is in charge of tracking them, here or in France, should be more diligent or fired!
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CPT Jack Durish
You are far more confident in European judgment than I especially during a time when they are suffering, not only in France, as masses of refugees overrun their nations and rape and violence become endemic.
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