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Has anyone else noticed that at most military schools the APFT graders seem to grade you harder than your unit? Why is this? Has anyone else seen this? I remember having to be video taped and having to provide three "example" push-ups prior to my test during my APFT in ANCOC, seemed a little over board at the time. Thoughts?
APFT
NCOES
Training
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 19
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Because NCOES grades to standard, most units grade to fix thier metrics. THis is systemic and needs NCO's with integrity to stand up and grade to standard at the unit level.
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SSG (Join to see)
I put together a PPT presentation for my unit outlining proper form for the push up and sit up event. I gave advice for increasing scores. I gave demonstrations on variations and even gave advice on cutting run times down. I wrapped it up with "You can't out train a bad diet I've tried" lol. When I'm in charge of conducting PT at Battle Assembly I make everyone run because that where most struggle the most. I tried to preach the standard, but 2 days a month is not enough time.
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CSM Michael Poll
SPC Edmond, We in the Reserve have a difficult time with this as you say 2 days a month will not prepare anyone to pass the APFT, You are doing more than most Reserve units as I rarely if ever see PT in the training schedule. In the Reserve it is an individual responsibility to maintain fitness. This is the ne point for leaders that is almost impossible to maintain. Except with paperwork for those that fail! Good job!
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SFC Gary Fox
CSM Michael P, I served as a 1SG for a Reserve unit. I counseled everyone who failed an APFT and everyone of them would tell me they didn't have time to do PT on their own because they either worked full-time or was going to college full-time.
I asked each and everyone of them if they watched TV every night. They all did. I told them each commercial break averaged three minutes. During one break they could do sit-ups; during another they could do pushups. There was no excuse for not finding 20 minutes in a day to where they could go run in their neighborhood. I blew their theory they didn't have time to do PT on their own.
Every BA Saturday after final formation, I would hold remedial PT. I started with two orange cones 25 meters apart. After stretching them out, I would have them line up side-by-side at one cone and do pushups until they reached muscle failure. Once they all hit that point, they had to duck walk to the other cone where they did crunches until muscle failure. While they were doing that, I moved the other cone away another 25 meters. Once hitting muscle failure from the crunches, they crab walked to the other cone where they once again had to do pushups until muscle failure. While they were doing that, I moved the other cone away another 25 meters. They then had to crab walk 75 meters. At the cone, they did crunches until muscle failure while I moved the other cone away another 25 meters. They then had to crab walk to that cone. The next day, they would all complain how sore they were. This helped motivate them to do PT on their own between BAs. This remedial PT program lasted no more than an hour per session.
If you use this approach, you will see your APFT passing rate increase in your unit. It did for mine.
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LTC Stephan Porter
In general CSM Michael Poll, I think that the units are just naturally biased (and don’t know it tealky) and the school houses are just holding to the standard as you stated.
There are some units ‘padding’ their numbers and schools grading outside the standard (harder) as well.
There are some units ‘padding’ their numbers and schools grading outside the standard (harder) as well.
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I hate to say it, but most of the pushups I have seen outside of an NCOES were not up to standard. At an NCOES they grade to standard. Period. They have no personal ties to the students.
It's impossible to correct a tester in the middle of an APFT in a way that will make a lasting influence. The correction needs to be happening every day at PT.
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Every NCOES APFT I have taken I have literally had to bounce my chest off the ground.
When I did situps the base of my neck had to go far beyond the base of my spine.
I do agree that unit APFT can certainly be the opposite, but every NCOES APFT was ridiculous. Not complaining too much, I earned APFT badge at each level, just saying it was pretty outlandish.
When I did situps the base of my neck had to go far beyond the base of my spine.
I do agree that unit APFT can certainly be the opposite, but every NCOES APFT was ridiculous. Not complaining too much, I earned APFT badge at each level, just saying it was pretty outlandish.
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SSG (ret) William Martin
MSG KG, is grading at a higher standard in the APFT part of a weeding out process?
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MSG (Join to see)
I don't think so. Probably the pressures placed on graders by their leaders to grade correctly, which gets interpreted to grade at a higher standard.
When Soldiers fail at a NCOES, the BDE CSM is the first person to get their ass chewed which starts the ball rolling downward. Therefore, there is a lot of effort in making sure their personnel are prepared and ready to successfully navigate the school.
There are schools that actively seek to weed out people, but the NCOES isn't the place.
When Soldiers fail at a NCOES, the BDE CSM is the first person to get their ass chewed which starts the ball rolling downward. Therefore, there is a lot of effort in making sure their personnel are prepared and ready to successfully navigate the school.
There are schools that actively seek to weed out people, but the NCOES isn't the place.
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SGT Ben Keen
Isn't bouncing your chest off the ground against the standard? The standard as I remember is arms must be parallel to the service member's body. For sit ups the base of your neck only needs to exceed the base of your spin. So if you are saying that you to bounce your chest off the ground and far exceed the base of your spine when doing sit ups, then I say that not all NCOES are grading to standard.
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MSG (Join to see)
SGT K, all those things you said are correct about the standards. It may be different now (last time I attended a NCOES was over ten years ago). However, based off what some of the latest WLC graduates have been saying, I doubt it.
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Sir, it comes down to this, there are a few, very few NCOs that will grade to the
standard at the unit but when senior NCOs/Officers tell them to take it
down a notch that is heart breaking. The hardest part is, if they don't,
they begin to be pushed out or not put in a position for promotion. I
have seen this between the different MOS and types of units. I was an
infantryman for ten years till an injury that caused me to re-class and I
then seen the differences. Also, those who uphold the standards were
never allowed to grade the APFT (we are to hard).
standard at the unit but when senior NCOs/Officers tell them to take it
down a notch that is heart breaking. The hardest part is, if they don't,
they begin to be pushed out or not put in a position for promotion. I
have seen this between the different MOS and types of units. I was an
infantryman for ten years till an injury that caused me to re-class and I
then seen the differences. Also, those who uphold the standards were
never allowed to grade the APFT (we are to hard).
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They are not graded different they are graded to standard. CSM Poll is correct, unfortunatly units grade themselves to make themselves look better. If you have a Company PT test many of the Graders are Junior Staff Sergeants grading their own Soldiers. In our BDE we have instituded where your own company will not grade your own PT test. Company CO's, 1SGs, PLs, and PSGs will be at the front of the PT test line to show the Soldiers that we do it as a Company. Also, the will be 1 or more CSMs or SGMs walking around overseeing standards during the PT test. It may seem like micro-management but you have to start somewhere.
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I know that i have experienced a lot of "over zealous" grading when I attend NCOES. So, having graduated DS School, Master Fitness and having scored 290-300+ while attending, I know that I can do the events properly... I know what the standard is, looks like, and how it is performed. This being said, I went to SLC in January and was like, WTF is going on here? when the grader was telling me to "go down further"... "Go up further" smh. NCOES just does not want to appear as though they DO NOT grade to standard therefore they really do make it almost impossible to complete the APFT with a high score... They do not want to APPEAR as though their standards match a unit with poor standards etc...
I will try to look at it like this. Everyone who attends NCOES sees and believes they grade too difficult. I believe it because I have seen it. That is also a fair assesment based on all the facts/opinions provided in the discussions,
People who are ASSIGNED to NCOA's claim that they are "simply grading to standard" so they can defend their grading methods/standards (w/e) when others argue they grade "too hard". But I bet when one of those cadre PCS's and are attending their own next level of NCOES school with no ties to it, and are then graded the same way they graded me or you, they wont be saying its to standard because now they are the "victim" instead of "victimizer" per se'.
Its all perception with ego and pride on both parties. Having said this, there is only one party that actually has something to lose, and that's the student and their career. What does the academy have to lose? Someone scored a 300!!?, oh my god, we can't have that can we?
I will try to look at it like this. Everyone who attends NCOES sees and believes they grade too difficult. I believe it because I have seen it. That is also a fair assesment based on all the facts/opinions provided in the discussions,
People who are ASSIGNED to NCOA's claim that they are "simply grading to standard" so they can defend their grading methods/standards (w/e) when others argue they grade "too hard". But I bet when one of those cadre PCS's and are attending their own next level of NCOES school with no ties to it, and are then graded the same way they graded me or you, they wont be saying its to standard because now they are the "victim" instead of "victimizer" per se'.
Its all perception with ego and pride on both parties. Having said this, there is only one party that actually has something to lose, and that's the student and their career. What does the academy have to lose? Someone scored a 300!!?, oh my god, we can't have that can we?
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The NCOES do grade harder than the regular Army when the regular Army is slacking.
There is one big caveat though: The pushup standard is just awful. Interpretations of what is a good pushup vary wildly.
I have no issue with the sit-up or the run. The problem with the pushup is that it is "where your hands are comfortable for you" and that the reference for "breaking the plane" is parallel upper-arms.
If the standard was "hands under shoulders, arms flat to the side, breaking the plane occurs when the shoulders are below the height of the elbows" then we wouldn't have the issue with the APFT.
In all the people that come through NCOES in Fort Lee, the number one event where scores differ massively from credible home station APFT is the push-up.
I have no issue with the sit-up or the run. The problem with the pushup is that it is "where your hands are comfortable for you" and that the reference for "breaking the plane" is parallel upper-arms.
If the standard was "hands under shoulders, arms flat to the side, breaking the plane occurs when the shoulders are below the height of the elbows" then we wouldn't have the issue with the APFT.
In all the people that come through NCOES in Fort Lee, the number one event where scores differ massively from credible home station APFT is the push-up.
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SSG (Join to see)
but yes SFC you are correct, it does NOT say "break" nor "break the plane" And yes according to the reg you only have to MEET the plane, not actually BREAK it, absolutely correct. But "at least parallel" is the goal. respectfully.
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SGT (Join to see)
the problem is that "parallel" in regard to the human body is a subjective term. I'm sure that in the perfect world it means when the bone in the upper arm is parallel to the ground but you can't see the actual bone and not everyone is built the same, lets say that you take a thinner person with longer arms and not a lot of bigger defined muscle it will be much easier to determine what parallel actually is for that person because its easier to see the bone structure of the soldier. the problem comes in when people start deciding what they think they want to be parallel on the different body types, for example should the tricep muscle be even with the elbow, should the middle of the back be even with the elbow should the front of the shoulder be even with the elbow, every one sees it differently, there is no set standard that everyone can see and train on evenly, and every point that you can see as a grader will look different depending on the soldier and the muscle they have, so the pushup event will never be graded completely fair, it has always been a topic of debate and most likely always will be.
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SFC (Join to see)
Boom I am so sick of hearing break the plane or go below parallel. That is not what is stated in the Reg as pointed out above. No matter where your hands are posistioned if your chest touches the ground you are below parallel. The only thing they can get you on if you do that is worming or not keeping your body in a generally straight line.
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SSG (Join to see)
1. anytime there is human involvement things will never go as planned and they will get messed up, its our nature. 2. if you have a super swole chest or someone has short arms and their chest touches the ground, that doesn't mean they are all the way down, (aka parallel) rare, but happens (and like it was stated about the generally straight line. 3. The reg says enough, it isn't difficult to understand or interpret. Everything else is just being repeated over and over again in here.
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In my opinion it may seem tougher but most schools that I have been to it has been fair. I think sometimes back at home units Soldiers can get away with less than standard pushups.
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I remember going to PLDC and having a bit of concern over the PT test. My concerns were put to rest when I completed the test with a higher score than the one I took to get there. The reason, because my unit graded me harder than it really should have. It was to my benefit. In most cases, (not all) those who are griping about the way a PFT is graded usually are the ones who need to work more on their PT. Just my experience.
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