Posted on Mar 4, 2019
SFC Ait Instructor
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Been finding a recent string of self identified transgender veterans on mainstream social media who've uploaded personal opinions about the SCOTUS decision to stay the current or "future" policy decision to ban and seperate transgender personnel from service and continued service, and are in support of banning trans Americans from service.

Hopefully I can get an actual conversation going on, but for some reason when I said how I was in Bagram, AFG (at the time of posting, I've just recently redeployed home) and would love a further explanation they've all be silent. I love to hear negative beliefs and opinions about why a whole population should be removed and banned from service beyond "they're icky and weird and confused". When I get to hear facts on why women, HIV+, and even Non-American citizens shouldn't be authorized to serve; I get facts and discussions. For the trans argument it's just "gross, icky and confused".

Any thoughts on the matter?
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Responses: 35
Lt Col Charlie Brown
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24
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It doesn't work well. And trying to be something you were not born and depending on medical support when deployed is an issue.
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MAJ Byron Oyler
MAJ Byron Oyler
5 y
SFC (Join to see) - A lot of it deals with policy changes. Previously if you were trans, you had to keep it to yourself and if it came out, you likely were chaptered. Good or bad, you were forced to focus on being a soldier. Now we focus on the needs of the soldier and if we cannot provide a needed medical service you cannot deploy and the current focus is deploy or get out. You can mention all these other problems you have seen deployed and if they came up at SRP and still deployed, someone was wrong. Depending on a transgender's level of distress, it can tax the system to degrees you may not even know. Some receive speech therapy, hormone therapy, intensive counseling, and some even need surgery. Today to not provide a transgender the care they need would be medical malpractice and while many see the treatment of transgenders to be social opinions, if you want medical treatment then you fall under medical guidelines. So many jump to conclusions that people make comments based on non-fact based opinions and those of us that look at patient's holistically really take a beating on this. You sound like a good soldier that won't attack me for this, I take note, and appreciate it.
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SSG Alexander Drinkwater
SSG Alexander Drinkwater
5 y
1SG John Millan - I could not agree more - well said!
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SPC Earl Semler
SPC Earl Semler
>1 y
I think there is a tendency for them to come into the service and get uncle Sam to pay for their complete conversion and then get out when completed. I am sure there are some who want to stay in, but do we gamble with the budget to find them?
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SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM
SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM
3 y
This practice appears to go against science and how GOD created us!
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Maj John Bell
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I am not transgender, so I would not presume to explain why a transgender service member would support banning transgender people from joining the service.

That said, I will offer offer my opinion, freely admitting that I do not know how much I do not know.

It is a common mistake to believe that the next war will be the same as the last war. In a symmetrical warfare scenario, the logistical effort may be much more complex. Difficult delivery of person specific meds may overly burden the supply train. And has been a standing reason for banning a number of people with a variety of medical conditions from service. Although not, medical supplies, it was my experience in the Marine Corps that during peace time, personal mail could chase you around the Pacific or Mediterranean for weeks, frequently arriving out of sequence.

It is my poorly informed understanding that transgender people suffer a substantially higher level of mental health problems, particularly suicidal ideation. That may be a contributing factor, particularly in the crucible of deployment, and furthermore combat theater deployment.

I do believe the "gross, icky, and confused" concern exists. That does not mean I think it is valid. At various times different subsets of American Society have been too "gross, icky, and ______." As examples and by no means all inclusive list: Irish, Blacks, Italians, Asians, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Sikhs, Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, etc. etc. etc. It seems that eventually, given enough time and no choice, the military adapts; typically faster than the civilian populace.
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SFC Ait Instructor
SFC (Join to see)
5 y
Thank you for your response MAJ John Bell, and thank you for your service to our great nation!

That last paragraph says it all, we as the Armed Forces move faster than society as a whole. Some says its great, some says its bad.
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Maj John Bell
Maj John Bell
5 y
SFC (Join to see) - Although it isn't a truly American concept, there is occasionally something to be said for "Dammit because I said so. Make it happen. NOW."

I am for one, favor a universal standard based solely on mission capabilities and combat effectiveness. Either you meet it or you don't. I do not suffer from any delusion that everyone will be happy with that standard.

I can honestly say that even in the 70's, 80's, and 90's I knew Marines who were not happy about being in a fighting hole with another Marine solely based on race, religion, ethnicity and national origin. When I could avoid the issue, I did. Not my proudest leadership moments, but the mission came first. When I couldn't avoid the issue, I and my senior SNCO's were quite adept at making them hate us so bad that they did not have time to hate each other.

In my entire time in the Marine Corps LGBTQ issues were not an issue. I served in one operational unit that had one female Marine. That became an issue (300+ male Marines, 1 female Marine) The female Marine was not the problem, the hormones of about a dozen of the male Marines were. I didn't have enough time to complete a sigh of exasperation before the SgtMaj and two Company 1stSgts figuratively removed the source of the problem, "mental testicles."
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MAJ Byron Oyler
MAJ Byron Oyler
5 y
SFC (Join to see) - I don't see this one changing until the trans population can agree it is a social choice and have it removed from DSM-V or it stays in DSM-V and insurance pays for health care. Personally if I was LGBTQ, I would push hard for it to be in DSM-V and listed as a disability. Reason why, no one messes with the ADA. You get ten points right away when applying for a civilian job and if anyone ever treats a disabled person poorly in public, ten other Americans will jump their ass. You probably think I am crazy but my role in life is to take care of people and if going the disabled route treats you better, then I am for it.
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TSgt Gwen Walcott
TSgt Gwen Walcott
5 y
Many that I know are disgusted at the wholesale declaration of being transgender as an excuse for lighter duty (perceived or real) AND, more importantly, the diminishment of the difference between being transsexual vs being a crossdresser and expecting benefits for the latter than were only intended for the former. There is also the resentment of expectation that the DoD will pay for and monitor transition when that option was self directed and funded by older transsexuals. There are dues to be paid. Free rides and exceptional benefits are frowned upon and resented
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
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So, I have known and do know a fair number of trans servicemembers. I've been in units with them and have never, ever had any issues with trans servicemembers. All of my Soldiers have been Soldiers first and everything else second. I fully support trans servicemembers serving in all branches and services and I think the "ban" is a knee-jerk religious conservative overstep by people who don't understand and are not comfortable with other people feeling different than they look.

All of that being said, this is my understanding of the primary reasons for the transgender service "ban."

1. The resource costs associated with the actual transition process are not in line with standard, expected, medical costs associated with able-bodied enlistees. We don't let others in with a lot of other known medical issues that require extensive resources to treat.

2. Some people view transgender as a type of mental illness because a person doesn't feel like the gender they happen to have physical parts for.

I think those are the two I hear most often.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
MAJ Bryan Zeski
>1 y
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
MAJ Bryan Zeski
>1 y
MSgt Kurt S. - I showed you where Jewish is a race. You show me where it isn't.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
MAJ Bryan Zeski
>1 y
MSgt Kurt S. Judiasm is a religion, as I said. Jewish is a subset of race. You can be a Christian Jew. You can also be a Caucasian who practices Judiasm.

Jewish religion and people are separate things.
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MAJ Bryan Zeski
MAJ Bryan Zeski
>1 y
MSgt Kurt S. - Judiasm is a religion. We've said that from the beginning. Saying that Jewish is a subset of race is no different than saying Caucasian and Asian are a subset of race - which they also are. Is saying that someone is Asian racist?
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Why are there transgender veterans who support banning currently serving transgender service members but won't discuss it?
1SG Retired
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With regard to any argument that the other Soldiers aren't ready, so it interferes--I call bs. That argument fails to consider that it is the same one used for other integrations--race, gender. Those are working.
Admittedly, I've not educated myself on this multifaceted issue. My basic understanding is, a person born with the physical organs/parts of one gender, identifies psychologically, as the opposite gender.
First, it may be for me to research, but in my day, that would be gay, lesbian, or bisexual. I understand it isn't solely about sex, and I'm aware of historical examples of people who disguised themselves and lived as a member of the opposite gender. Since they're dead, we can't ask whether they did it for identity, or to pursue an occupation that would have prohibited their actual gender from participating.
I do believe, in part, this issue is being politicized because it appeals to 2 separate bases.
With regard to any surgeries or other medical treatment, I oppose those on the basis of cost, lost work time, liability for compensation claims, and deployability.
With regard to any negative effect on good order and discipline, I'm not certain I accept it as valid. Those who opposed racial and gender integration made similar arguments that have been proven wrong. My experience is Soldiers are going to give their peers a hard time, and a harder time for those who don't perform, or who can't take a joke. There will certainly be those who oppose it based on bias, religious beliefs, or any another ideals, just as was used for other integrations. Soldiers worked through those, and the professionals based their treatment on peers on performance.
Essentially, I believe Soldiers can learn to accept someone's identity, and despite any opposition to it, can work with the individual. The problem, IMO, is if there is any real or perceived advantage for another Soldier.
Examples of real or perceived advantage:
Surgery, convalescent leave, profile recovery time, nondeployable time.
Male identifies as female, graded on APFT using female standards. (Note: I don't know what is used, as I've done no research. Reason for raising this is there was a male competitive power lifter who never won. After some time, he identified as a woman, so competed as one, and, of course began a run of wins.) I understand treatments to reduce or increase testosterone are part of the process for changing gender through surgery.
Maybe this is already addressed, I haven't checked.
My comments are based solely on knowing Soldiers. I oppose DoD paying for any medical procedures or treatment to facilitate any transition of gender. My opposition is based on cost and readiness.
With regard service by someone pre surgery or post surgery, I am neutral.
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1SG Retired
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1SG Mitchell Smith
1SG Mitchell Smith
5 y
Top, the seat we sit in is a hot seat, placing soldiers becomes a problem no matter how you look at it. The barracks housing becomes a nightmare...from the very beginning basic, AIT, duty station I agree the logistics becomes a nightmare. AND, as a leader if you dont agree you're quickly relocated to a S/shop.
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1SG Retired
1SG (Join to see)
5 y
1SG Mitchell Smith the logistics, especially in in IET environment, would be a huge challenge.
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1SG Mitchell Smith
1SG Mitchell Smith
5 y
I don't think they are truly looking at that part of the picture. Sure you as a 1SG will assign rooms accordingly, however, we TRY to make it as comfortable as possible for everyone. This is where it gets tricky coming home every day not being able to be comfortable but excepting what the military said you have too...1-2-3-4 years as roommates. The army answer is "whatever gender he/she is assign a room". Slippy slop for a command team...
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CSM Darieus ZaGara
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The discussion is not as Cut and dry as you state. Bottom line is that there are a multitude of issues whenever the Government modifies standards for the military, whether that be related to human anatomy or the type weapons carried on the battlefield. If an individual who served in the military and later made such a huge transition and does not support that same life’s choice in the military in itself is telling. However, as I stated up front there are a multitude of issues related to this and any other policy change that needs to be reviewed in its totality not just because it is.

Thank you for your service.
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SFC Ait Instructor
SFC (Join to see)
5 y
The argument is cut and dry; "why are transgender veterans supporting the trans ban?" That's it.

As for policy review, completely agree. Despite who I've talked with and know, the entire report or reports wasn't made for public ingestion. It was very strange, even as an Active Duty trans Soldier I found this kind of strange. I also agree that if you don't abide to the culture of the Armed Forces, you don't belong. That is true why the Amish are precluded from serving our country, their lifestyle isn't exactly compatible to our Armed Forces culture. I still get glares and gestures from the civilian LGBT "community" whenever I visit large cities because I wear my pride of country on my sleeve. And thank you very much CSM Darieus Z. for your response and for your service to our great country!
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MAJ Corporate Buyer
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No one can speak for anyone else so I have no idea why some trans people would support the ban. I have stated on RP before that there is data to support that trans people are likely to experience depression and have a greater likelihood to contemplate or attempt suicide. I have heard others on RP who seem knowledgeable say that those statistics are not accurate. At any rate, it makes sense for the military to look into this further. With the issues we currently experience with veteran suicides, it would be reckless to allow a group if people into the military already having a propensity for that.
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LTC Eugene Chu
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Two famous transgender veterans are Kristen Beck (Retired E-8 SCPO from DEVGRU / SEAL Team Six) and Chelsea Manning (Disgraced E-1 PVT who gave classified info to Wikileaks). Pasting URL to old 2013 article of former angrily denouncing the latter

https://www.businessinsider.com/transgendered-seal-team-6er-issues-scathing-response-to-chelsea-manning-2013-8
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SFC Ait Instructor
SFC (Join to see)
5 y
Thank you for your response MAJ Eugene Chu! Within the few circles I associate with of transgender veterans, Manning was a foul disgrace and was punished but personally it was a farce when she was authorized a commute for her time in prison. I don't understand the situation completely, but emotionally I don't think she was punished enough.

Manning wasn't just a disgraced and terrible example of what an American Soldier is, but further review identified they're violent from attacking their female NCO (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8964543/Bradley-Manning-attacked-female-soldier-and-sent-picture-of-himself-as-a-woman.html) but also tried using their transgender status as an excuse to get away with their heinous crimes (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/08/bradley-manning-apologizes-for-espionage-defense-cites-rough-childhood-gender-disorder/).
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SFC Harry H.
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Edited 5 y ago
IMO, and I say opinion, but really it's closer to facts. That any person who tries to be someone "PHYSICALLY" who they are not, is mentally ill. Anyone who would allow themselves to be self mutilated to be someone their not, is mentally ill. I don't argue the fact that these people are able to physically do the job. I do question their ability in the decision making process. And please don't be mad at me if I don't call you by the gender of your choice. You can convince yourself, but you don't convince me. The military should definitely not have to pay for any treatment or procedures. Plain and simple, transgender people should not be allowed in the military. The one thing the military doesn't do or do a good job of, is screen people with mental illness before they join.
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SFC Ait Instructor
SFC (Join to see)
5 y
SFC Harry H. - I guess you could also bring up our civilian spouses who did (not theoretical) received medical intervention regardless if cosmetic or "a genuine medical concern". What's the warfighting function of a civilian/military female who gained breast augmentation surgery? What's the purpose of a civilian/military male vasectomy that allows us to surgically strike against an enemy combatant stronghold? Keep in mind I'm not against the previously mentioned examples, there are plenty more of course. But where would we draw the line for medical care?
As a sidebar for sunburns, I found it funny that Doxy is required (experiences vary) to be taken daily but you cannot be directly exposed to sun light for long periods of time which could vary from person to person. It's humorous in a sad way that a sunburn could get you separated but we're required to take Doxy while deployed.
SSG Kasius McCall - The original piece here is that "why are transgender vets saying they support the ban without any substance?" That's it. I was having discussions or trying to bring up discussions with these individuals while in AFG and all I got was silence.
MAJ (Join to see) - I guess the piece is for you; what allows you to be FMC to serve our great nation? What is the line that says we've crossed and must go back? I see responses about mental illnesses should be for a call for dismissal and in some extreme cases such as a couple of my friends that is true! They're being medically discharged for mental illnesses, but you need the context. If the policy comes out and says "mentally ill individuals cannot serve and must be discharged effective immediately", the line is placed and we must remove everyone who never sought behavior health services. This includes but not limited too: Military Sexual Trauma survivors, individuals such as PFC Danny Chen and others who took their life, uniformed mothers/fathers who whose child is a stillbirth, and those witnessed/survived direct combat action. But on the same side of the coin, we take care of our own so that they retain their FMC status, regain it, or are going through a med board to be officially separated.
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SFC Harry H.
SFC Harry H.
5 y
So if I may ask, what would you call it? Perhaps I may be a little over dramatic with my describing it, but to me that kind of meets the definition of self mutilation.

The biggest concerns I have with transgenders in the military as I stated before was the mental stability of those individuals. Personality disorder, gender dysphoria (gender identity disorder) are forms of mental illnesses. Again, I never said that a transgender people could not physically do the job. But the mental illness raises concerns.

I'm also concerned with the amount of time and effort from all that has to go through this process. All the Soldiers in the unit, the want to be transgender Soldiers, doctors, nurses, psychiatrists. The amount of time associated with that and the down time for that surgery, the recovery time, and the amount of time it takes that Soldier to become fully mission capable and pass a PT test again. During all that time the Soldiers in the unit must pick up your slack. Doctors that could be dealing with wounded Soldiers coming back from overseas, the nurses that are short staffed dealing with you and not other ill of wounded, the psychiatrists that has to sit down with you and not other mentally ill Soldiers who may be suffering PTSD, or who had been contemplating suicide. You use all those resources when it's not necessary during your enlistment.

I just googled searched real quick, but it says anywhere between 3-5 years and maybe longer for the entire process. As we all know the bare minimum to an enlistment is what? Three years now, use to be two for the Infantry. In a three to six year enlistment you will have spent that much time wasting focusing on other than Army training. Needless to say wasting tax payers money getting the procedure done.

Note, I could care less about anyone looking to become a transgender person. Just not on government time is all.
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MAJ Corporate Buyer
MAJ (Join to see)
5 y
SFC (Join to see) What makes me FMC is determined by the Army. If they start kicking people out for having a sense of humor I'll be on that list. As for mental illnesses there is certainly a difference between the governments liability to someone who is suffering from something like PTSD which is service related and someone who already has a mental illness who wants to be let in. I understand that lines drawn in the sand could possibly keep some people out that shouldn't have been. But that is typically how the military works right, wrong or indifferent.
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SFC Harry H.
SFC Harry H.
5 y
SPC Heather Broxton - Let me stand corrected, maybe not call it self mutilation, but rather having your body dismembered or mutilated. I mean I guess unless you were to rip the little worm off yourself.
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1LT Cadet
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Oh the things wrong with this. 1. You have to understand the demographic. This is a very political topic that divides most. 2. Transgenders are one of the othered groups who is suppose to be liberal. In today's political atmosphere, breaking away from Dem. Party is a death sentence for you in your circle of dem. Friends. 3. The biggest supporters of trans are other trans. So goong against the feelings of that group will take away a huge support system. Again, thanks to today's divisive political environment
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MSgt Nondestructive Inspection (NDI)
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You should have to have undergone the full proceudre and be stabilized to serve. There are many females (some males too) that have experience MST while serving. This percentage is much higher than the percentage of trans individuals. MST is considered a line of duty injury. Rooming a female who has experience MST with a trans airman who has not had the full change could further harm the female that has had the MST. In my opinion once they have had the full changes top and bottom and are stabilized with their hormones I have no problem with trans people serving. This is like requiring other medical conditions to be corrected first before allowing someone to join. To the “cost” issue my plan would be to allow the airman to take a “sabbatical” where they temporarily leave the military for a couple years to get it done and get them stabilized then return as the other gender. My biggest issue is with the people who take a few pills, leave their bodies intact in their previous gender and call it good. This could have a seriously negative effect on a service member who has experienced MST in the past and is forced to room with them while deployed. If you are going to be the opposite gender be fully committed and go all the way!
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