Posted on May 16, 2015
1LT Nick Kidwell
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Yelling man
Why is it that there are people out there who feel it's their duty to abuse others verbally? I'm asking this in the context of people specifically going on the offensive because they are atheist (think Richard Dawkins, only more abusive), and the other person claims a faith, usually Christianity.

I mean, I know people who have NO beliefs in common with mine, but we can have philosophical discussions all day long without any animosity. Then there's the rather witty and very intelligent people that, once they discover a person is a Christian, flip a switch and become a shark in a feeding frenzy...

I can respect your lack of faith, even though it saddens me. I only ask that you respect mine.



***Editing Note: On 21 May 2015, I removed the tag "Politics." As the OP, I don't intend this question as an antagonistic one nor do I intend it as a political one. I am simply attempting to gain insight into the motivation behind behavior that I have personally witnessed.
Posted in these groups: World religions 2 ReligionAtheism symbol Atheism2000px christian cross.svg Christianity
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CPT Jason Torpy
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I think you need to notice that the atheists you hear about (dawkins, hitchens, etc) and the christians you hear about (huckabee, santorum, comfort) and the messages of theirs that you hear are all distorted by the media. But in person when you talk to people, try to get away from this ideas that beliefs have rights or that faith deserves respect. You as a person deserve respect. People have rights.
Beyond that, you've got no actual content or situations to discuss. You're just saying atheists are hostile to christians. As an atheist, I can tell you I'm never hostile to christians. I occasionally get into heated discussions about belief or politics, but in those cases, it's not hostility and it's just as likely that the christian started in on me first.
But I agree to respect you and avoid being hostile to christians. I just ask that you be a bit more specific if you've got an issue.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
1LT Nick Kidwell
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CPT Jason Torpy Please understand, I'm not talking about Internet trolling...I have personally encountered this.

See, I'm an experienced Science teacher...not currently teaching and I hope to teach again someday, but that's another story.

In my years in this world, I have encountered quite a few very vocal and antagonistic atheists who openly belittle anyone who professes a faith, especially Christians...and more especially Christians who study the sciences.

Now, I have always felt the need to try to show others my reasoning for my faith when they challenge it. Recently, I have grown to the point where I simply walk away before the situation devolves beyond the point of productivity, however in the past I have not been so successful.

All I am trying to do is understand the thought process behind people doing this to friends, classmates, battle-buddies, co-workers, and strangers.
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CPT Jason Torpy
CPT Jason Torpy
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Bash
I believe this is he sentiment you're expressing: http://www.yoism.org/images/addiscartoon.jpg
atheists are openly reviled in American society. We occasionally fight back. I would say that the majority of 'why are atheists so angry' is Christians who can't handle having people participate in evangelism by opposing it. Your best option is to stop policing the tone of the discussion and focus on the content.
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LTC Bink Romanick
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I wonder what you would think if another religion was proselytizing and evangelizing the way that some Christians do.

Evangelicals seem to think that they're under attack. Maybe it's their actions that cause that reaction.

Don't try to force your beliefs on others and stop politicizing your religion.

Even more so be a Christian in actions not just words.
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SPC Safety Technician
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Example?

I'll tell you why I speak up: religious people make policy everyday. And I think we could all benifit from a more secular nation. The libertarian in me suspects I'd feel this way christian or otherwise.
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SPC Safety Technician
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1LT L S If you say so, sir.
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
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Jesus 3
Have a freebie
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SPC Safety Technician
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'twas a joke, good sir. 1LT L S
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SPC Safety Technician
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Funny philosophy
1LT L S I've never seriously studied philosophy myself. I've Just never taken much from the subject matter. It's just not my bag of chips, I guess.

People just take it too far. Once you start seriously questioning if reality is real, you lose me. Assume it is, because there's no other 'real' option (lulz), and try to actually learn something about it.

Aristotle, Plato, Socrates. . . They were more than what most people think of when they hear about a philosophisor.
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CPT Senior Instructor
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I usually don't like to bring up my faith at all. It is between me and God. I think others should adhere to that. I don't want to hear someone telling me how Christianity is so awesome. After that I will tell them something that doesn't confirm to what they think and all of a sudden I am the bad one. I have seen it far too much and too often. I think we would speak of faith both parties willingly do so. If not I don't care to converse of things at work or other places. That is just me.
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SPC Charles Brown
SPC Charles Brown
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Why is it that if you as a Christian don't conform to the ideas of another Christian that somehow you are a lesser person than they are?
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CPT Senior Instructor
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SPC Charles Brown How is a christian any less for me not wanting to talk about their faith?
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SPC Charles Brown
SPC Charles Brown
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I don't understand this either, because you are no less a person for not informing someone else about your religious preference or why you believe as you do. I have been accused of being a lot of things, including someone who has no desire to share the Gospel if I fail to mention my specific religion. I don't see where my personal religious preference is of any business of anyone in the military or in the rest of the world for that matter.

CPT (Join to see) my comment above was not directed at you sir, it was directed at someone else. Sorry for any miscommunication. I cannot even bring myself to mention the other individuals name.
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CPT Senior Instructor
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SPC Charles Brown None taken. What it comes down to is that if it is not wanted I think it should be dropped. I think if you really want to spread your faith setting the example is the best thing. Telling me about your faith is great. But I prefer not to speak of such things at work. If you bring up your faith I am fine but if you try to preach to me that is where I have concerns.
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SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S.
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Perhaps Christians are getting some bad PR?
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
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MAJ (Verify To See) - Major; Just to be a bit closer to being correct "Christians did many things which we are now told are contrary to the Scripture - but which were completely sanctioned according to the interpretation of the Scripture which was current at the time (to say nothing of those actions being fully condoned by "The Church" of the day.".

The only way that you can completely divorce the actions of those Christians from "The Bible" is to completely expunge the Old Testament (and that puts a real crimp in "Creationism" and even "Intelligent Design".

I've always felt that "Intelligent Design" was a rather dicey position for "Christians" to advocate because they are either talking about "(Biblical) Creation" - in which case they are simply attempting to obfuscate their position - or they have to admit the possibility that "The Designer" was someone other than the "God" referred to in "The Bible" - in which case they are talking heresy.

In short, "Intelligent Design" is either "cryproChristian" or "heresy" and there really isn't any middle ground.

Sorting that one out is still beyond me because I'm still attempting to sort out which of the three versions of "Creation" contained in the "infallible Word of God" which is contained in "The Bible" is the REAL version of "Creation" that we are supposed to believe in.

PS - Other than "I am the Son of God" (which Christ didn't actually say) there isn't anything new in "the message of Christ". Heck, even if you toss in the "I am the Son of God" there isn't anything new in "the message of Christ".

PPS - The fact that there isn't anything new in "the message of Christ" doesn't detract from the validity of the TEACHINGS of Jesus (that's "teachings" as opposed to "claims which other people have advanced about Jesus").
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
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MAJ (Verify To See) - Major; But you still don't know if I am a "Christian" or not yet (and I'm not about to tell you). Even if you do think you know if I am a "Christian" or not, you still don't know what "flavour" of a __[fill in the blank]__ I am (and I'm not going to tell you).

My "theology" is a private matter between me and __[fill in the blank]__ and I WILL NOT tell you how to relate to __[fill in the blank]__ .

BTW "debating scripture with believers" is a whole lot like kissing your own sister (in public [with your parents watching {while she is wearing a veil}]). In short "Damn dull.".
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
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Jesus
Jesus 2
MAJ (Verify To See) - Major; Not debating scripture with "non-believers" is also one heck of a good way of ensuring that they remain "non-believers" - but, you are correct, you do have to make your own assessment of how best to fulfill your obligations (and then take the flack for those decisions when it becomes time for you to be judged [NOTE - "Purity of Heart" counts for almost as much as actual deeds.]

I will admit that I am not of the same branch of "Christianity" as you are - but does that make me a "non-Christian"? I think not, but you may be of the opinion that anyone who doesn't belong to the exact same sect as you do is not "really" a "Christian".

PS - I spell as I was taught in Grade School for the words I learned in Grade School. As to flavor/flavour it all tastes the same to me.

PPS - Christianity is that religious doctrine which was taught by a reformist orthodox Jew (and one who remained an orthodox Jew until the end of his life). To see Christianity as anything other than a variant of Judaism is incredibly naive. To refuse to admit that many of the rites and doctrines of Christianity have been poached from religions which pre-dated Judaism is silly. To refuse to admit that the "Jesus Story" has almost identical parallels in other (and earlier) religions suggest a deliberate ignoring of reality. To confuse "The Religion" with "The Church" is almost unpardonable.

Jesus most likely looked more like the top image than he did the bottom REGARDLESS of what the pictures in your local "theologically approved" Sunday School teach children.

PS - Given the choice between Moses, Jesus, and Mohamed, I'd rather go drinking beer with Jesus.
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
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1LT L S - Lieutenant; There is the ancient joke about the old bull and the young bull who spotted a herd of cows and had a punch line sort of like "Et descenderet ad radices montis ambulemus omnes loqui.".
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SrA Edward Vong
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I respect all beliefs, only I don't want to hear about it, and I don't want to talk about mine, unless we're having a religious discussion.
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LT Charles Baird
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SrA Edward Vong

I understand now - thank you for the clarification - I cannot speak of other holy books all I can speak of is the King James Bible. Now mind you I am not a scholar by no means; but it seems to me that the Old Testament is a history book.

It is a history of a people (the Hebrew Israelites). A history of where they came from; what happened to them; what their beliefs were; what their laws were; and their interactions with other cultures.

Much like our American history books or the history books from any country or people that once existed

The New Testament is a guide for how we should live our lives today; what we should or should not do; how we should or should not treat each other, etc...

A God that will punish those who live a great but fulfilling life; I guess we would have to know what great but fulfilling is.

Let me ask you this question; say as a child you were living a great and fulfilling life; and in your house your father had laws (rules); and you didn't obey those laws (rules); would your father punish you for disobeying and not believing him or would he just ignore the fact that you didn't obey his laws (rules)?

I understand what you are saying and I respect it; I hope what I wrote here may get your analytical juices flowing.

I appreciate your time and indulgence.
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SrA Edward Vong
SrA Edward Vong
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LT Charles Baird
I have not followed what my father taught me, I found my success and fulfilling life (so far of course I'm only 28) through my own means. Since I have proven him wrong and have shown him that one must follow their own path, he accepts it and understands it. Ultimately the father only wants what is best for their children, they can only give the guidelines, but if one can find another way, so be it.

I do respect Holy Books as a history book of sorts.
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LT Charles Baird
LT Charles Baird
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SrA Edward Vong
Great conversation - thank you. I would like to chat more but it is 2:00 am here in Afghanistan and I must get some sleep.

Take care of yourself.
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SrA Edward Vong
SrA Edward Vong
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LT Charles Baird
You take care of yourself as well, keep safe over there.
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SGT Team Leader
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Well, why is it okay to be openly antagonistic toward Muslims? Why is it okay to say that those who aren't religious are anti-gun, anti-family, and immoral?
Outrage is only acceptable, it appears, if one feels that they are in the company of the majority.
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
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1LT Nick Kidwell - Lieutenant; Have faith.

When God created the Universe - exactly 6,247 years, 9 months, 16 days, 7 hours, 52 minutes, 18 seconds ago (as of the time it has been pre-ordained that I will hit the "Comment" button for this post - He created all of the so-called "evidence" which the devil corrupted so-called "scientists" falsely claim "proves" that The Bible is not the actual and inviolate directly received literal Word Of God faithfully recorded in the original English that Jesus spoke.

However, a religion is a "belief" and you must have "faith". If you feel compelled to rely on "facts" then you are not a "True Believer"

In short, I respect the fact that you believe what you believe and won't attempt to "convert" you by using "facts" which run contrary to what you believe to be true just as long as you don't attempt to "convert" me using myths without factual backing.

Believe me, that's a pretty good deal because there are only a few changes you can ring on "The Bible is True because The Bible is the Word of God and we know that The Bible is the Word of God because The Bible says that it is the Word of God and it is obvious that the Word of God is True.".
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1LT Nick Kidwell
1LT Nick Kidwell
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It is appreciated that you are not going to try to "convert" me back to what, until 2006 or so, I held to be irrefutably true based on secular science.

Just trust that my current views on origins and other aspects of the beginning of the universe as we know it are based not merely on Scripture, but on the very same scientific facts that you refer to.

This is not an uninformed and superstitious viewpoint.
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TSgt Christopher D.
TSgt Christopher D.
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1LT Nick Kidwell what do you mean "secular science?" I'm not aware of any religious science. I'm not saying there isn't any "religious science," at least as any alternative to science. I am saying that I'm not aware of it.

Out of genuine curiosity, what scientific basis do you have for your belief in God? The Kalam Cosmological argument? Irreducible complexity? Do you lean on a teleological argument? The Deontological argument?
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COL Ted Mc
COL Ted Mc
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1LT Nick Kidwell - Lieutenant; I have to go along with TSgt Christopher D.

There is no such thing as "Religious SCIENCE" and there is no such thing as "Secular SCIENCE".

There is either "Science" or "Theology" and it is really up to you which one you give credibility to for everything AFTER "The Start of Everything".

If you want to give 100% credibility to "Theology" then you have to defend the position that "God created everything - including anything that looks like evidence that God didn't create everything." as (at least) a possibility.

What NEITHER "Science" nor "Theology" can PROVE (at present) is what happened BEFORE or DURING "The Start of Everything".

By and large "Science" doesn't really care what caused "The Start of Everything" and "Theology" doesn't want to talk about it because "We already know what was involved in 'The Start of Everything' because the __[fill in the blank]__ tells us what was involved and the __[fill in the blank]__ is the direct and literal Word of God and God doesn't lie to us and we know that God doesn't lie to us because the __[fill in the blank]__ says that God doesn't lie to us and since the __[fill in the blank]__ is the direct and literal Word of God and God doesn't lie to us then what is in __[fill in the blank]__ must be true.".

I may be very surprised when I finally get the answer to what happened at "The Start of Everything", but - then again - you might be surprised too.

[If God turns out to be a very large, Black, Female, Homosexual, Muslim - there are going to be SERIOUS repercussions, let me tell you!]
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Capt Christian D. Orr
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As a practicing Catholic Christian, I daresay that the worst and most vicious antagonism I've received has been from supposed fellow Christians. I have a big-time problem with bigoted fundamentalist/born-again/Evangelical Christians telling me that because I'm a Catholic, I'm not a "real" Christian (never mind that my Church is about 2,000 years older than theirs), that my Church is the spiritual Babylon, and that the Pope is the Antichrist. With "friends" and supposed fellow Christians like these, who needs enemies? I'd much rather be in the company of atheists or agnostics than those insufferable dogmatic judgmental jerks any ol' day of the week.
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Capt Christian D. Orr
Capt Christian D. Orr
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To expand further, I've never had a fellow Catholic, or any of the other "traditional, old-school" Christian Churches (Anglican, Coptic, Orthodox, etc.) condemn me as an evil sinner deserving of hellfire because I (1) cuss, (2) drink alcohol **to moderation**, (3) smoke cigars, and (4) like to play the blackjack tables every now and then. For that matter, neither has any Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Wiccan, atheist, or agnostic condemned me for these things. It's consistently been the HTT Christians (and when I was younger, the Jehovah's Witnesses) who've always given me grief for such perceived impurities and presumed to tell me how to run my life; in the case of item #2, they equate me drinking even one beer or glass of wine with the sin of "drunkenness;" by that same rationale, I suppose that enjoying food consumption beyond mere subsistence level (i.e. the bare minimum to avoid starving to death) is committing the sin of "gluttony."
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SPC Safety Technician
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I hear from a lot of bible-thumpers in my area that Catholics aren't christian. I hear it ALL the time. Maybe you can explain this nonsense to me.
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Capt Christian D. Orr
Capt Christian D. Orr
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MAJ Carl Ballinger I've had multiple such a$$holes say it to my face.

SPC (Join to see) There's a very simple explanation: not only are they bigoted bastards, they're also intellectual lightweights and mental midgets who very little if any knowledge of real history.
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Capt Christian D. Orr
Capt Christian D. Orr
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Fair enough, thanks MAJ Carl Ballinger . What can I say, I don't sugarcoat my opinions with kinder, gentler, politically correct language. It's my roguish streak. ;-)
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TSgt Christopher D.
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1LT Nick Kidwell I would like you to consider one aspect of Christianity, indeed a command from Jesus Himself, and how that sets the stage for some of the treatment doled out by atheists toward Christians.

Jesus told his Apostles to go out into the world and spread the good news. Doesn't sound too bad, but... consider: that good news is this: God created the universe and everything in it. He is everywhere, is all-powerful, and He knows everything. God is perfect. God created you, but because the first man and woman He created thousands of years ago were beguiled by a talking snake (that God allowed into the Garden of Eden) into eating a piece of fruit that God told them not to, as soon as you were born, you were a sinner in God's eyes.

God is holy, and since sin is not holy, sinners cannot be with God. God tried giving the people law, but it was impossible for them to live by it and keep themselves free of sin. So because God loved us so much, He decided to impregnate a virgin, who would give birth to Him in human form. This person was Jesus. Jesus did a bunch of miracles to show he was the Son of God. He healed the sick, fed the multitudes, turned water into wine... but the people hated Jesus and they crucified him. They mocked him, ridiculed him, beat him, flogged him, they tortured him and then hung him on a cross for 3 days. Because he lived free of sin, his blood could wash clean everyone who believed in him and reconcile them to God. Now, because of Jesus' tremendous love and sacrifice, your sins can be washed away, and you can live in Heaven with Jesus and God and the Angels forever and ever.

So... an all-knowing, all-powerful being created us, allowed us to be beguiled, then punished not only the offenders, but every single human being that has lived since with a death sentence to an eternity of unspeakable agony and pain. This sentence was handed down to me the minute I drew my 1st breath, and unless I believe this story, ask Jesus' forgiveness and for Him to be my Lord and Savior, and get dunked in water, then I am going to burn in miserable agony for eternity, even though I'm only alive some 75-80 years, on average?

I'm sorry, but I do not appreciate being told that I deserve an eternity of unspeakable torture, or that the person who passed this judgment on me loves me, or that he sent his son to be tortured on my behalf, or that there was any real sacrifice (Jesus knew he would rise again, so...), or that this was a just action, or that it's ok for someone to punish the entire human race because a talking snake tricked a naive girl into eating an apple.

I have never simply offered that explanation to anyone. I have provided it though, after people decide that I NEED to hear their good news, or that I need to convert. No one says a damn thing to people proselytizing their Christian faith, but as soon as someone speaks out against it... Oh boy.

But Christians rarely see this as any kind of double-standard. Its perfectly acceptable to share the Christian good news. It just means you love people and are doing as your God commands, right? But what would the response be if I went to people and told them that religion was BS meant to control people? What if I went to someone's deathbed and did like Christians have done to atheists (You don't want to burn in hell, do you?), and lovingly told the person "Now come on, you don't really believe the talking snake, the burning bush, the Red Sea parted etc etc?" Christians get a pass, but you know damn good and well I wouldn't.
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TSgt Christopher D.
TSgt Christopher D.
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Sir... Are you questioning the religious faith of our honorable senators, congressmen and women, justices and the POTUS himself?

I'll agree with you regarding the social Christianity, here in the US and many other places. That being said, if they're more comfortable identifying as a Christian, then consider the social implications for them if they don't tow the party line on issues important to Christians? What 'side' will they stand on? And so if they'll stand on the side of Christianity, then I'm good counting them amongst the Christians, whether Jehovah is or not.
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TSgt Christopher D.
TSgt Christopher D.
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I didn't dispute anything you said about a person's claim to be Christian, or "cultural" Christians, as you said.

I do think it's interesting that you're looking for evidence... (friendly jab)
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TSgt Christopher D.
TSgt Christopher D.
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1LT L S , if I'm not mistaken, Thomas Jefferson basically edited the Bible in a similar way (removing what he deemed as mythical), leaving the message of Jesus intact.

There are parts of Jesus' message I find very good. Loving your neighbor, anti-materialism, forgiveness, anti-hypocrisy...

But Jesus also introduced us to conviction for thought crime, and that we shouldn't worry at all about tomorrow. Oddly enough, we know that if we fail to plan, then we plan to fail. Do you save for retirement? For emergencies? If you do, then you're not following his message. Jesus introduced the concept of eternal torture in hell.
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TSgt Christopher D.
TSgt Christopher D.
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1LT L S

That's interesting. According to the gospels, Jesus talked about hell almost 3 times as much as he spoke about heaven, and alluded to punishment there being unending.

Out of curiosity, is there a reason you write to me with such condescension?
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SrA Daniel Hunter
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Like many things I tend to see social antagonism in political terms. All things are "a response to." As a Christian I see things in society that I put into groups (judgement). If it is bad (normative term), I see it as against what my religious beliefs are; or I see it as against social norms. If it is good, I see it as reinforcing social norms; or I see it as an example of the manifestation of my religious beliefs. Throughout my life what I perceive as good or bad has changed. This is mostly the result of what I would call the maturity of my faith.

There have been several things that have guided me in that faith. The first is who I am. Literally it is the meaning of my name "God is my judge." With that I recall several bible passages: Judge not, that you not be judged; If you have something against your brother you have killed him; You shall not kill; If it is of God nothing you will do will stop it, if it is not of God it will not last. I did not come by my faith because of what someone else did or said. I came to it by experience, when I was alone. For this reason I do not like to preach my faith but to live it. Yet there it is. Mostly it is for those who believe yet attribute social norms with religious requirements. My God has one requirement of me. To love.
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1LT Nick Kidwell
1LT Nick Kidwell
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I think you and I might get along in a Bible Study group. I am glad to see other Christians thoughtfully considering their faith.

I would say that evangelism by example is great, so that people can see that you live what you believe, but I would caution you that we are indeed called to spread the Good News.

The mistake most people make (I do this all the time) is to do it outside of God's prompting and His will. In fact, I suspect most of my efforts have been on my own strength, not His.

If you are trying to tune in to God's will for your life, I am sure He will prompt you if you ever do need to speak to someone about faith.
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SrA Daniel Hunter
SrA Daniel Hunter
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Thank you Sir. I would say "evangelism" in itself has a negative social connotation. In my assessment this is due to those who have proclaimed they are evangelists then point to the sins of others and the need o turn from it. Those who were the evangelist turned out to be hippicrits because they were also sinning. They do greater ill to the cause than good. The better example is the good person, who boasts little, demands little and has compassion for others. The tree that bares bad fruit vs the tree that bares good fruit.
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