Posted on Oct 29, 2013
Why do you think we are not enforcing appearance standards? By that I mean and target the overweight and overweight looking in uniform.
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Let's face it. We see so many people in uniform that are clearly overweight, and if not that, at least they look like they're overweight! My mother told me she was in shock when she saw a Soldier that was big. She's a civilian and is very proud of the Service and what all service members do. I just couldn't understand how as the First Responders that we are in times of conflict, we can represent such an unhealthy image.
"And you wanna be a Soldier?"
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 21
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NCOs enforce standards, period.
If standards in a unit are lax, it is because there is a culture of lax standards.
I can't think of a single time that I corrected an issue or fixed something substandard and got overruled by my boss. Not once. In 22 1/2 years in this man's Army.
If people are not enforcing the standard, it is because they lack the courage to do so.
If standards in a unit are lax, it is because there is a culture of lax standards.
I can't think of a single time that I corrected an issue or fixed something substandard and got overruled by my boss. Not once. In 22 1/2 years in this man's Army.
If people are not enforcing the standard, it is because they lack the courage to do so.
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SSG (Join to see)
Well said Top. Here's my argument. If I am the only, per sae, doing this when will my peers, superiors and junior NCOs get on board?
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SSG (Join to see)
SGT Wike there is no exception to the rule. Injuries are covered by a profile, however the profile doesn't state you are allowed to disregard the standard. You are stilled to maintain a military appearance while you are on profile. This mentality is part of the reason standards are deminishing. A profile is not an excuse
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Unfortunately, some of those Soldiers that "look overweight" are the same ones that can ruck for days and pull a vehicle out of the ditch with a tow strap and their bare hands. There's a difference between looking big and looking overweight.
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SGT(P) (Join to see)
I believe that a revision in the ABCP program is sorely needed. It has shown that a tape test is ineffective at accurately determining body fat composition. A water displacement test is a more accurate means, but highly cost and time prohibitive. A body fat caliper is a more accurate measure, and can help to reduce some of the inappropriate standards.
I personally knew a super star solier that was taped every time he was wieghed. He consistenly scored on the extended scale, and had 9% body fat, but, by Army standards, he was overweight at 5'6 and 185lbs. It evevtually was resolved through the use of the "good-old boy" system, as the 1SG was tired of seeing him get taped and knew that while in violation of the ABCP, he didn't need to be harassed for his weight. He was a physically fit and compotent NCO.
I personally knew a super star solier that was taped every time he was wieghed. He consistenly scored on the extended scale, and had 9% body fat, but, by Army standards, he was overweight at 5'6 and 185lbs. It evevtually was resolved through the use of the "good-old boy" system, as the 1SG was tired of seeing him get taped and knew that while in violation of the ABCP, he didn't need to be harassed for his weight. He was a physically fit and compotent NCO.
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I think a lot of that is going to change. I won't make excuses but I remember my commander and 1SG's frustration when they tried to chapter some of our overweight Soldiers. Now that the Army is downsizing I think you will find it easier to Chapter those APFT and AWCP failures. I think we will also see a spike in ART 15's and NCO will be more empowered to make corrections instead of fearing the SHARP/EO reps.
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SFC (Join to see)
Sir, that last statement you made is exactly what I would like to address as taking it 'too far'. As leaders we should know that we have the authority to mentor those that don't meet the standards. Fearing SHARP/EO reps is completely ridiculous! As long as you have all the facts there should be no room for fearing those sources. Leaders that are NOT confident, fear.
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CPT Aaron Kletzing
This is well said. In times of peak manning needs during OIF/OEF, company-level leaders had to be very careful with when/how to pursue disciplinary action against individuals in violation of the standards you speak of. That doesn't mean they didn't try to mentor them. The situation was just so delicate, and the burden of evidence you'd need as a leader to appropriately create consequences for violators was challenging to meet. I can see a change coming with this as the military reshapes itself in the coming years. Just to be clear, I always advocate trying to mentor personnel in violation of these standards, but sometimes despite your best efforts as a leader the individual just does not have the will to improve and progress.
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MSG (Join to see)
1LT Christopher Sorge - That's funny. Always good to see a butter bar with a sense of humor.
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I see the comments about ht/wt. I'm a newbie compared to you old dogs, but I am aware the standard that's there has been around a good while. You talk about the army of old like there weren't fatties at all. I know for a fact there were. Upper ranks did less and less physical work. As should be expected in our hierarchy. This is not an excuse for their appearance or the appearance of my peers and subordinates. The army standard had stayed the same but the mental standards have dropped with the implementation of political correctness and hurt feelings. I know things can be hard to accept and see after being in for so long, but I believe we should upgrade our standards since this government wants to kick people out. Bring in the caliper testing or bod pod and make an actual set of standards not based on neck fat.
Rant over.
Rant over.
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SSG (Join to see) The Standards are there, we the NCO's are the enforcer's of the standard. I have no problem bringing any issues up to any Soldier regardless of gender and or rank. It's about approach and tact. Having the self awareness and self regulation to be assertive in my communication regardless of the standard.
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Thanks what seems to be an appropriate rant SSG (Join to see)
I hope waht you are observing is not widespread but a local problem. In any event I concur with you that exercising leadership from squad level on up is the solution.
I hope waht you are observing is not widespread but a local problem. In any event I concur with you that exercising leadership from squad level on up is the solution.
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You can't really try to target someone that "looks" overweight when in fact that soldier might be well within the guidelines of AR600-9. If you target someone just because they look over weight it can look as if you are out to get that soldier. Some do look sloppy in uniform but that doesn't make them overweight.. already been thru that issue where I'm at. It's one thing if they are actually over weight, but it's another if the look overweight but are still well within standards..
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CPT Charles Creed
Best I'm aware of is that a command can direct a height weight and tape, but like you say; if the Soldier is within the standard then they pass. Directing them multiple times would fall under harassment and probably get IG onto you fairly quick.
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SFC (Join to see)
It's not targeting the person. IAW AR 600-9, CH 3-2.d "Commanders have the authority to direct a body fat assessment on any Soldier that they determine does not present a Soldierly appearance, regardless of whether or not the Soldier exceeds the screening table weight for his or her measured height."
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SSG Mark Jordan
I feel like the standards are there and have been there for a while weight AR 600-9. It also says that even if you make tape if you appear to be overweight you can be weight and taped at anytime. I think a lot of people are more worried about hurt someone feelings or just lazy leaders that don't want to the paperwork to. It starts with busts weight or tape. Then a counseling by the commander or 1SG, after that they by regulation must see nutrition. If this step is skipped or over looked when it goes to legal they will throw. You still have to allow them time to improve 3-5 percent body fat a month. They have to be flagged. If you have counseled them sent to nutrition flagged them gave them a little time to improve after enrolment in special population physical training have the paperwork to back it up every step of the way. You can put someone out for being fat. Yes it is a long process but if you do it right is possible.
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SSG Mark Jordan
This comes about at times when fat people use someone to give them a pass and say they good when they are not. IT IS THE COMMANDERS decision then to say hey I know this person fat that must weight in. They do not loom to make weight and he or she can order that
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It is an undeniable fact that today's Army is a different organization than that of even a few years ago. Times change. Society and social norms change, but Army standards seldom vary. We must lead from the front and set the example.
All NCO's have the authority to ensure that the standard is upheld.
We are entrusted to keep the Army unchanged, to make sure the bar is set both high and level for each and every Soldier in our charge. It is important as leaders to exemplify the standard to our subordinates, "Your Soldier's need to see what right looks like." It's up to us to show them.
All NCO's have the authority to ensure that the standard is upheld.
We are entrusted to keep the Army unchanged, to make sure the bar is set both high and level for each and every Soldier in our charge. It is important as leaders to exemplify the standard to our subordinates, "Your Soldier's need to see what right looks like." It's up to us to show them.
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Went out the window! Some NCOs have lost their backbone by trying to be liked by their peers and soldiers!
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Peters
As a result of the NCO CORE losing their "BACKBONE" officers are forced to step into our lane. I see this to often. Me, cut from an old school cloth, that believes in my NCO Core have a difficult time trying to force them into their lane due to my peers and some superiors just don't care
As a result of the NCO CORE losing their "BACKBONE" officers are forced to step into our lane. I see this to often. Me, cut from an old school cloth, that believes in my NCO Core have a difficult time trying to force them into their lane due to my peers and some superiors just don't care
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SFC (Join to see)
Yes you are correct! We are not to let officers do our job! I have been around wise old school NCOs who spoke real, lived the NCO creed!
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