Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Capt Michael Wilford
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Posted in these groups: Discipline1 DisciplineEnlisted logo EnlistedUcmj UCMJ
Edited 6 y ago
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MAJ Thomas Person
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TOP Furr is correct. From what I have seen (besides men holding hands in uniform; I guess that's alright but don't get caught kissing a female if you are a male; there's rules about that undermining discipline) . I don't care who you plank off hours but keep the same standard. That's the crux. A lack of stressors on troops from the 1st day is probably the genesis of the problem EX: The last mission or operation I was in; in Africa. Our JSOTF had been up 36 hours to include crew time which was busted somewhere that day; nobody remembers. it was during the Rwandan disaster. We were in the field SCIF when an airman walked in from the JTF and wanted to see me as I was the JSOTF J4. I told him that I would get with him in a few (as I was busy with 5 senior NONCOMS and POs and the OPSO) and please leave the SCIF. The guard literally fell out at his seat so he walked in. The airman said he wanted to talk now and I politely told him to get the fuck out or he would be arrested by the SPs. He came back a few minutes later with a sorry assed AF provider. Our JSOTF senior enlisted was a STS type, E-8. Former 24 STS type. bad ass. The provider wanted to know who I was and he began a soliloquy of why I was "mean" to his E2 by saying "FUCK". The Ranger commo guy and Senior MSG XXXX pulled me off the couple. They never came by the JSOTF but they sent written messages. But the point is WTF is E2 "Smedley" lack of a tough skin because I said the word FUCK? BTW who is he? This was serious business and this kid wanted to see me tight then and there. WTF?
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Pvt Engineering Technician
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reading all the responses reminds me of the six blind men of indonesia .The parable of the blind men and an elephant originated in the ancient Indian subcontinent, from where it has been widely diffused. However the meaning of the popular proverb differs in other countries. It is a story of a group of blind men, who have never come across an elephant before and who learn and conceptualize what the elephant is like by touching it. Each blind man feels a different part of the elephant's body, but only one part, such as the side or the tusk. They then describe the elephant based on their limited experience and their descriptions of the elephant are different from each other. In some versions, they come to suspect that the other person is dishonest and they come to blows. The moral of the parable is that humans have a tendency to claim absolute truth based on their limited, subjective experience as they ignore other people's limited, subjective experiences which may be equally true.
so each man was part right, but blind to the whole truth. :-) USMC 1961 1965
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CPT Daniel Cox
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Anecdotal information should not be used as fact in developing a White Paper on any subject. Just saying...
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Capt Michael Wilford
Capt Michael Wilford
6 y
I appreciate your response, but the responses I am getting here are a part of what I am writing, not the entire content. The qualitative piece is important as I am basing some of my content on my own observations and having some of my observations confirmed by others is part of my research. As a doctor, this is not my first rodeo with research writing. Mixed method research has a place and is as valuable as quantitative research. RP is not my only source of information. I am also using peer reviewed work.
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SPC Squad Member
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This is said countless of times through different generations, one constantly trying to out brag the one after the next. There’s nothing stopping a PV2 who doesn’t care anymore to tell their 1SG to “Shut up”, that’s not a generation thing that’s a individual thing, always has been. Senior leaders see what they want to see, they see the one soldier not going to parade rest for the 1SG, but not the group of junior enlisted who’s ready to do anything in the world their NCOs tell them to make an impression and be a great group of Soldiers. The Army is huge, you’re going to see a lot more discipline issues then you would in the Marines, nothing a good nco can fix.
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SSG Herman Bauman
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When I was a Buck SGT. I had one of my Pvt's tell me I didn't have enough rank to tell him what to do. When I got thru with him, he had no doubt that I did indeed have enough rank.
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MAJ Matthew Arnold
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Because I've been out so long (retired in 2002), I can't really comment intelligently about army discipline now, but I can say this is not the first time and probably not the last time the army has had to and will have to go thru this cycle. During and after the Vietnam War the army had serious discipline problems including near mutiny in isolated incidents.
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SSG Travis Hackney
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Because you’re dismissing them as ‘lower enlisted’ instead of mentoring them as ‘junior enlisted’
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Capt Michael Wilford
Capt Michael Wilford
6 y
No, I am not; you are playing semantics rather than answering the question. By virtue of their ranks, lack of time in service, and lack of time in their respective grades, they are lower enlisted. As an NCO, is it not your duty to mentor these “junior” enlisted troops? If that job falls to the commissioned officers, then why do you as a SSG exist? For that matter, why do NCOs exist?
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SSG Travis Hackney
SSG Travis Hackney
6 y
Capt Michael Wilford

Your toxic leadership is part of the problem: an NCO’s role is to train and lead Soldiers.

Leadership is a two way street, all Soldiers are leaders.

When a good NCO looks at a CPT, they think: this Soldier could be competent, or they could have never earned any of their mandatory promotions. This Soldier could be close to making MAJ, or this Soldier could be fresh off 1LT, and require more training from me. This Soldier could have commissioned from a variety of sources, and could be a complete shit bag. Until I figure out their level of tactical and technical expertise, I’m going to do just enough to not piss them off, and build my team of JUNIOR ENLISTED SOLDIERS.

“LEADERSHIP DEFINED
1-1. Leadership is the process of influencing people by providing purpose, direction, and motivation to accomplish the mission and improve the organization.”

Key words: PROCESS OF INFLUENCING

https://www.benning.army.mil/MSSP/PDF/adrp6_22_new.pdf

http://www.milsci.ucsb.edu/sites/secure.lsit.ucsb.edu.mili.d7/files/sitefiles/fm6_22.pdf
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SGT Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic
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Honestly I wouldn’t use the “army” as a whole soldier discipline has always been maintained at a nco level Iv seen soldiers with great discipline and some without any and it’s been directly related to first line supervisors and their interactions by getting comfortable with their soldiers. It’s a lifestyle that’s what the army is it is not a job it’s a life style change and people seem to want to be liked by their own soldiers which they don’t go about it the proper way and leave room for that indiscipline. If I as a Sgt ever saw my soldier not go to parade rest talking to any NCO or attention to any officer then I correct them on the spot and make sure to fix it if my soldier ever felt it was ok to tell a 1sg he isn’t better then him because if his rank then I failed somewhere but I’d be damn sure to fix it quick. My soldiers discipline and any soldier 1-4 discipline is directly related to how they are trained and taught yea you have that one soldier. Who does what he wants well that’s easy to fix process him out of the military if he can’t play by our rules
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MAJ Operations Research/Systems Analysis (Orsa)
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At a previous duty station a general asked the ORSA team to answer this exact question. After collecting the data and running a regressive analysis on it, it wasn’t rank that was the defining predictor. It was age and to some degree, whether or not you lived in your own between Mom’s house and the Army. But it was an interesting age relationship because the curve dips down for folks around 25 to 35, but then cycles up so there is some lack of discipline uptick in higher ages. A lot of that was due to the SIR data. Lots of domestic spouse on spouse issues with the higher ages that resulted in disciplinary action. There is also a lot of variance between MOSs suggesting there is some leadership differences among our various job branches or our branches tend to attract different types of people.
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MAJ Seth Goldstein
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I have been out for a few years now but I would think it is not any worse now then ever before. I believe a lot of kids join the military for a variety of reasons and some of them become disenchanted quickly and fall back to their undisciplined ways.
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