Posted on Jul 29, 2019
Capt Michael Wilford
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Please understand, I am NOT bagging on the Army here, I am simply asking a question based on my own observations. I served two tours on two different Army posts and witnessed first hand how lower enlisted soldiers (PV1 through SPC) interacted with soldiers of higher rank (CPL through SSG) and I found their lack of respect and lack of discipline to be a bit disturbing. So, my deeper question is this; is this perceived problem of discipline due to the size of the Army as compared to the Marine Corps where we do not have this type of discipline issue, is it due to smaller unit cohesion, or is it something else? I am writing a white paper on military discipline and any information will be helpful. Remember, at the end of the day, we are one military with different missions toward the same end goal, so please do not use this thread as a means to bash other branches of service. I have not done that to the Army; I have great respect for the Army and for its mission and I am simply looking for others' observations about discipline.
Posted in these groups: Discipline1 DisciplineEnlisted logo EnlistedUcmj UCMJ
Edited 6 y ago
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SSG David Angell
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The problem is that the Army, as well as the Air Force cater to the lower enlisted. Instead of "Putting their Foot Down", they cater to them. They know nothing will be done to them.
When I first went in (1969), if you didn't do what you were told to do, you got your ass handed to you, that is after the punishment phase.
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CPL Charles Jackson
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Their are several factors to your statement/Question. One being that the Marine Corp has a great pool of people that are competing for rank and job slots. Second the Army looks a non NCO's enlisted as replaceable along with rank of E-1 through E-4 as auto promotions. What is also a contributing factor is that the Army changes its retention standards. This is based on slots that are vacate, along with its budget that is authorized by congress. The Pentagon often reviews its personnel needs vs equipment needs to keep within its operational budget,
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SGT Lloyd Burge
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Sir, I see that this was posted 10 months ago. I served in the Army from 76-87, two tours of Korea, 1 in Germany. Although my observations are old, I have had 32 years to reflect. I hope my comments help.
Vietnam devastated the Army officer corps. Discipline was left to the NCOs. Minor infractions were dealt without UCMJ action. They were dealt with by extra work details, restriction to barracks. This kept career ruining ART 15s down. The NCOs were able to show that they genuinely cared about the soldiers assigned to them.
This started to change in the 80's. As the officer corps grew stronger the NCO corps grew weaker. UCMJ actions became much more common, leading to a decrease in morale. From my observations, for brevity general observations, NCOs were focused on the next promotion, officers were focused on the next posting, and the lower enlisted were ignored.
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CPT Eireanne Russ
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This is an interesting question, and one that is not new. Those of us who served in the late 70s and in the 80s had similar challenges.

This is a leadership challenge and young leaders have to be committed to leadership 24/7. Setting and expecting high standards is the start but LIVING those standards each and every moment is the key to success.

I think that it has it's roots in spending so much time on the battlefield with a limited, and non-specific, strategic objective, no truly decisive engagements and a lack of demonstrated national will in the endeavor. A war that started out with a call to arms and a visible rallying point is now being fought by soldiers (E1-E5 and O1-O3) who were not old enough to have their own emotional responses to the attack on the World Trade Center. Very reminiscent of the Vietnam War.

Soldiers commit to fighting and dying, but no one at home has any real skin in the game except parents. In fact more and more of the service age youth see it as an errant cause and choose not to participate. In 2001-2003 a large number of young people wanted to do something because the smoking towers were burned into their memories, that is not so today, so the quality of recruits is lower than in the early ‘00s. In the late 70’s and early 80’s we had an equally, possibly lower level of quality and motivation.

It took a combination of NCO’s willing to hold the line every moment of every day and backed up by officers who want to see them do it. And there are a lot of us out there. My PLT SGT and Asst PLT SGT were attacked in the barracks because they were holding the platoon responsible for nasty looking rooms two weeks before I arrived at the battalion. They knew the attack would happen and went into the barracks anyway. They were not because looking for a fight, but they were not going to allow the troops to intimidate them either.

Three E5s and two SP4s lost two pay grades and we chaptered the three E5s out of the service with other than honorable discharges. Interestingly, one of the former E4s regained his rank then earned his E5 to replace his E6 who was a week leader and had allowed the ill-disciplined behavior in the first place. I like to think that because my PLT SGT and I were willing to hold them to high standards and led with high standards for training and performance this young man became all he could be.

The key is, and always has been, leaders who set high standards by demonstrating those high standards. In my life after the military I have found that setting, demonstrating, and expecting high standards of performance works even with delinquent youth.

I will add to this that in the early 80’s the military was willing to allow the removal of poor performers while the DOD was willing to only recruit quality people and the Army was focused on empowering young leaders (Corporals, Sergeants and lieutenants) to lead and to identify their best solutions to the problems they faced. You don’t need to be the biggest baddest person to ever wear the uniform, you just have to seek excellence in yourself and your subordinates and be the last one to quit.
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1LT Platoon Leader
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My insight is as follows Sir - discipline in the military has different meaning then anywhere else. I.e. immediate attention to orders, GO’s, courage under fire, physical fitness. The list could get quite long. I’ve served in both active Marines and Army and I’ve noticed the same thing you have. Bluntly I think it’s largely due to political correctness. The Marine Corps has an attitude that all they do is “kill, kill, kill!” Every Marine a Rifleman. They’re pretty good at instilling that attitude as well. It’s cool to be truly gifted at ‘closing with and destroying your enemy.’ The Army on the other hand is has way too many different mind sets it struggles with. The large portion of Soldiers I interact with and get to know join because they have nothing else to do, or because they initially thought the gun hoe Army they saw televised inspired them and then they experienced the actual Army. NCO’s are largely tasked with instilling discipline and without a singular, widely accepted mindset, it feels like the NCO’s and Soldiers don’t know what’s expected of them so they don’t try as hard.

As well, four years in the Corps I don’t remember participating in a single parade, publicity march, or other social media formations. In the little over 2 years I’ve been Active Army I’ve had to cancel planned training more times then I’ve been able to execute training I’ve tried planning. The Corps and Army practice different priorities a daily basis and I feel that’s what you’re seeing as the discipline issue sir.
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SGT Juan Robledo
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possibly the lack of respect due to their up bringing, many see other soldiers mouth off and that isn't right, so therefore the issue
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SSG Mark Burke
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You Sir are a new officer in your "All New Army" as it was posted and fed to us up until my retirement. I'm a retired NCO and understand your frustrations to the "T". Problem is my man, you joined an ASS KISSING Army where the lower enlisted as well as the NCO ranks have come to think, "believe AND BEHAVE in a manner where they feel you listen or go sit in your corner bc I have more time cleaning latrines than you have active duty". Same shit, different military. Stand your ground, enforce discipline from "TOP" down and ensure your unit has faith in you. A couple "let-go's" are cool. Major infractions punish but, easy brother, you still want them. Share kindness in your command and punish those who refuse to be or are otherwise disruptive. Just an ol' time NCO Sir!!
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SSG Dave Johnston
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This "discipline" issue began post Viet Nam, late '70s early '80s, when some "thinkspank D.C. consulting firm" bilked the DOD a couple of million dollars, convincing them, the DOD, that it, and its subordinate branches should adopt a "Corporate" like image. Something about reducing the images of "The Atrocities of War" on the Services... Hope they like what they engineered, removing the ability of the Superior Officer or NCO to be Judge, Jury, Executioner, and Confessor, no paperwork required, with discipline, respect, and cohesiveness restored, all in the space of a minute.
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SSG Mark Burke
SSG Mark Burke
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The NCO has lost the backbone to "run" the unit as well as "school house" training administered to Officers on how take it away. If the Officer ranks don't let his NCO's operate and manage their unit then the officer is will fall EVERY time. If the officer doesn't see the unit operating at peak performance, throw in some Training Ojectives and walk away. If the Unit despises their commander and has little to do with him............an objective has been made, respect whether they see it or not and Top needs to be driving that train.
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CPT Derek Wren
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As others have said on here, the discipline and respect as well as customs and So forth are quite often at Company and or BN level. We could talk about this all day long as I was firm believer in leading by example and if you are an NCO then you damn well better act the part or will be replaced. Just as a commander can be removed, enlisted soldiers within a company can be just as easily if not easier. When I joined in 02’ I stood at parade rest as we are required to do, not asked nicely to do! From 02’ through my time as a 2nd LT, 1LT then on to Company Commander, I watched before my eyes the as the lower enlisted went from showing respect and completing the mission to needing their hands held and somebody watching over them. Not in all cases was this true but the majority of what I saw was this occurring. On more than one occasion after telling my 1SG I wanted the building cleared as I could not hear myself think, the troops and even some NCO’s disregarded what they were told. At said time I walked out of my office and dropped the hammered that NCO’s better act the part of an NCO or come let me know you want out so I can get your paperwork started as I had the full backing on my BC. It took the soldiers a matter of seconds before the building was cleared.
The point of this story was the fact that lower enlisted are going to follow suits right behind NCO’s, and if they see them doing or acting they please the lower enlisted will follow their lead. As time goes on these lower enlisted move up to NCO’s and continue the cycle. Additionally I believe. Very strongly that this mindset starts now in Basic Training as opposed to years ago when Basic Training was a place that set the ground work for the making of solid soldiers which will then move on to their respected unit and hopefully continue that cycle.
As one other person stated on here, a units leadership( regardless of size and structure) is responsible for instilling discipline within the ranks.
I will say that I did always like and very much respect the USMC for the discipline of their marines, regardless of rank and or title.
Best of luck on your white paper.
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PV2 James Johnson
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When I got out of the Army in 1971, just back from Vietnam, (3 years in). I saw a different Army materializing, so the choice for me was to get out. I walked into a mess hall and saw changes that told me it wasn't right for me anymore. The current situation is just one of many problems I saw coming, the new army as it was being touted.
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SSG Mark Burke
SSG Mark Burke
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Damn man, I joined in 78 and retired. Thats all I heard while active. Just kept knocking NCO's down and letting Commanders run their unit to boot. They are OUT OF PLACE!!
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SFC Food Service Specialist
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I’ve seen E-8s and above have discipline issues as well not SFCs and below only difference upper echelon and Senior Ncos so called standard bearers have more accessibility to cover up their faults. The standards come from the top so if they aren’t making effective changes holding standards it trickles down to the lowest level
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SSG Mark Burke
SSG Mark Burke
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Conditions, Standards and Training. Learn it, know it, live it!!
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SFC John Fourquet
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Edited >1 y ago
The problem is NCOs not doing their jobs and a chain of command not doing anything to fix the NCOs or back NCOs when they try to discipline soldiers. The really sad thing is the Army will promote these problem soldiers to NCOs and the problem just continues.
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Cpl Ernest Thomas
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The issue isn't only with the lower enlisted. he issue is ARMY wide, from the top down.

2005 FLARNG 164th ADA, annual training at Ft Stewart GA. I was a (VERY) salty SPC. (6 years prior service USMC, 19 year break in service, 14 years law enforcement as a road deputy sheriff) I was put in charge of a few tasks to be completed out in the field operations specifically the TOC. I had a PV1 and a PV2 literally tell me NO, they didn't want to do that. Too bad!!! I tried explaining to them beforehand why they need to follow orders, we're not friends, buddies or pal's, we are soldiers doing soldier shit! I chewed them out until they thought I was going to beat them. When I finished they both went straight to a Lt Col which was near by and heard most of the exchange and complained, The light Bird called me over while playing dumb and asked me what the issue was, after stating my apologies for the two PVT's not following the chain of command I explained the issue. I believe the Lt. Col just wanted to see if I was speaking truthfully. The Light Bird acknowledged my apology and proceeded to light-up the PVT's [The Lt Col was prior enlisted, Army Special Forces].. A few days later I got my ass chewed by a couple E-'7's [later found out the E-7's were banging both PVT's] The Lt Col had seen this but said nothing at the time.

A few more days later we were in morning formation and given instruction's that upon leaving the Mess Trailer we were to grab 2 MRE's each for our mid day and evening rations. Come mid day meal I went to find some shade and I saw a PVT looking around at everyone with their MRE's. The PVT seemed confused so I approached him and asked what the problem was,. The PVT stated he was wondering where everyone got their MRE's. I said, did you not listen in formation this morning. He informed me that he had been on an early morning detail and wasn't in formation. He said he never got to eat breakfast either. I was dumbfounded that his platoon leader hadn't procured any food for this young PVT. I walked him over to the mess trailer to attempt to help him get a couple MRE's. The mess trailer detail was of zero assistance from the E-8 down. I then handed the PVT my MRE and told him to let me have anything he didn't want. I wound up with crackers.

Now remember the two E-7's that were banging the two young PVT's from earlier, Well they watched me give the PVT my MRE. NEITHER heard our conversation nor did they know why the PVT didn't have any MRE's all these 2 doucheknuckles knew was here is a PVT with no food and now I gave my food to him so NOW I have no mid day meal. These two fools proceeded to light me up once again. I stood there and took the ass chewing, verbal assaults, name calling and all round belligerence. When they seemed to be finishing up, here come the Lt. Col who apparently had seen what I was doing for the PVT and had actually heard part of the conversation. I locked up, the two E-7's stood there all cocky until the Lt Col. made them lock it up while telling me to relax. The Lt. Col had me explain to the two douchnozzles WHY I was giving up my MRE and that the PVT was away prior to to formation so he never got the instructions to grab two MRE's AND that he never got breakfast. I further explained that the VERY FIRST thing any Marine NCO is taught, TAKE CARE OF YOUR TROOPS! That is why I gave up my food to the PVT. The Lt Col dismissed me and the PVT. As we walked away I heard two E-7's getting a serious verbal reprimand. Both wound up with official sanctions in their records. As for me, I wound up with a little green and white ribbon and a piece of paper to wipe my ass with but more importantly, I also wound up gaining more respect from the junior enlisted and officers...

My point is, it's NOT just the junior enlisted with the attitude and discipline problems.
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SPC Robert Lefebvre
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I'm afraid thats characteristic of society in general Garbage in garbage out !!!
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SFC James (Jim) R Brown
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If there is a discipline problem with any grade it is due to the Senior NCO and Officers. If they do not exercise their command powers a should be there will be a problem with the troops below them.
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SPC Petroleum Supply Specialist
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I noticed the same thing too , I figured it's because some of these soldiers are young . I'm 37 and only started 3 years ago, the reason why I joined , long story short , child support is a sonava bish , I thought maybe its because lack of bad life experiences, because to me , despite the things I put up with the army , is still better than putting up with BS in the civilian world. The army is actually better, should've enlisted forever ago , better late than never i guess.
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LCDR Joseph Richter
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This is something during my time I saw on a continuous basis. Not called for and I did not put up with it. When I was a young enlisted man in the Navy, I saw some of it and was really put out by it, my second and third tour of duty was as a Corpsman with the Marine Corps. I'm telling you, day one with the Corps, I learned there was a big separation between E-1 to E-2 to E-3 and beyond. You called no one by their first name unless you were the same rank or the other lower in rank to you. Discipline was everything there and stuff got done faster, better, and more of it because we just did it, didn't talk back and wanted to get it done and get on to other things. Later, when commissioned and I was an OIC I would witness how some younger enlisted sailors were addressing higher ranking, Chiefs even. I pulled the Chiefs aside and said, they were to take care of it or we would all be talking about it at 3:00 a.m. in the conference room. That happened twice, people didn't like it and discipline got better. I leaned on my senior enlisted leaders to change the culture, and they did. I really believe the younger enlisted appreciated the discipline, knew where they stood at all times and were well recognized for their military demeanor. Don't ever give in on discipline, get on it, in an operational or wartime scenario, it may save someones life.
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PO1 Gerald Millione
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capt wilford: the military forces create their own leaders, enlisted and officer. few persons entering military service are blessed with military leadership knowledge, understanding, and application when compared to those leaders who were taught military protocol, leadership fundamentals, and hierarchy. boot camp actually did little to teach me leadership, but did a lot to show me how to follow orders. big difference there. as i moved around to three different military branches, rising through the enlisted ranks i saw many examples of enlisted and officer leadership, but i'll say this: what they all had in common was respect for the chain of command. having served in viet nam gulf of tonkin in the 60's, and 20years later as a reservist in the marines and the army i saw a generational alteration in military discipline. one petty officer friend of mine, he was active duty on a nuc carrier, said there was this thing called a "card". if a sailor felt or believed he/she was being stressed (whatever the etiology) they could apply the card to the situation and it would relieve them of facing the issue, or something like that. i really dont know first hand about that but it is what i remember being told in early part of the 20's. i was retired in 2004.

i believe now that boot camp needs to be disciplined from day one. raise the standard, not lower it. recruits believe it because they see it on television, they dont know any better. but discipline needs to be mixed with leadership principles, not just in the classroom dogma, but shown what leadership is through cited example. my own military examples of leaders was based more on chain of command. if you had the badge you wore it. if you didnt you followed it. that simple. a couple of recruits in my boot unit were sent home for lack of discipline. for inability to accept orders. maybe these days the standard for getting in is lowered, and the means of staying in is lower still. in any case a great divide exists between officers and enlisted, and even within the enlisted ranks there seems to be a civilian like approach to everything military. a leader raises up, not pummels down. a leader empathizes but gets the message across. a leader shows the way not just hands you a map and walks off. maybe to sum it up, a leader gets his hands dirty, but doesnt let the dirt stay under his fingernails.

PS: for me the whole military went to shit when women were integrated into the most personal close contact situations. can a woman make a good fighter pilot, yes. can she carry, drag or cover a 200 pound wounded male from the enemy in a fire fight - maybe, maybe not. i wouldnt want my life to be the one to bring out the answer.

praise be to god and country. gerald
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SSG Timothy Hertenstein
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The ARMY needs to get back to the time before it became a Boy Scout Camp. I went to Basic in 1968.
That was the REAL ARMY. Discipline was #1 seams that today no one cares ! I say go back to the Draft. Start over again make it REAL!!! Not a Game. I Retired it 1989 and can say that I'm a PROUD Vietnam Veteran.
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SFC Robert Brooks
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We have a group of leaders that grew up in combat and are great combat leaders, but do not know how to lead in garrison, which is just as important. I understand they are tired (been there, done that) and want to spend time with their families, but Soldiers still need their leadership when the combat mission is over and the garrison mission begins. Stop texting your leadership decisions, put your phones down and lead.
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