Posted on Sep 2, 2016
COL Lee Flemming
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The human capital and financial costs of long-term military intervention is extremely steep. Have we built our military to fight, or is there a real expectation that we nation build too? Are we resourced to nation build? The reality is obvious, but I am not sure if the end result is expected, predicted or even understood at the time of deployment. We all know the definition of insanity...
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SFC Mark Merino
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When the United States military is unleashed, it is a juggernaut. Green kryptonite couldn't slow it down. Then our government got creative and decided that it was the military's job to be State Department employees and were to also be ambassadors, nation builders, civil engineers, media savvy spokesmen, social workers,........................
The last successful nation to be built post-war, by the military, was Japan....and that required nuclear weapons to get to the foundation that was necessary to rebuild upon. A nation that had been around for thousands of years, militarily hardened by the way of bushido.....reduced to rubble. When the will to fight was finally outmatched by their overwhelming misery, a new nation was reborn. Their very identity was forever changed.
We live in the world of public opinion, political correctness, and politicians who plan their every move based on their ability to hold onto power for as long as they can. The military works for the sitting POTUS and their own State Department. Rules of engagement are not designed to keep our warriors safe. Our troops are made to feel that their own nation will throw them under the bus whenever it is convenient. HRC single handedly destroyed the one thing that every warrior holds sacred; leave no one behind.
I have a difficult time trying to engage my brain housing group with our civilian leader's intentions. Apparently, so did so many of our key leaders. There have been so many quality military leaders relieved for one pathetic reason or another and usually it was for making a decision geared towards keeping their troops safe. I miss the simple days. The days when the military was unleashed like a plague upon our enemies.
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SFC Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
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LOL.... wrote my response before I read your. We think alike.
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Lazaro Alcazar
Lazaro Alcazar
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Once deployed wearing a uniform all that's left is to follow instructions with set mind honor love and loyalty. Only one thing on mind. To win at all cause or die in the line of duty...
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SGM Mikel Dawson
SGM Mikel Dawson
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SFC Mark Merino Well said. In general, the U.S. military is not a nation building business - we are in the war business.
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SFC Mark Merino
SFC Mark Merino
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SGM Mikel Dawson - .........and business is good.
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CPT Jack Durish
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That's a helluva good question and it seems it's one that many of us have been wondering about given the depth of comments in response. Personally, I think it doesn't work because it can't. (Now doesn't that sound stupid - but it's true). Ask any mechanic and they'll tell you. "I can fix anything if only I had a bigger hammer." It seems that the mechanic's in Washington have been playing by that rule for a long time.

How about using a different paradigm: Use the right tool for the job. If things need blowing up or people need killing, send in the military. If not, don't. And when you're done blowing up those things and killing those people, go home. If you need a nation built, let the people who live there build it. If they ask for help, help as little as possible so they will build their own government. Try reading the Declaration of Independence. It's a great guide to nation building.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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CPT Jack Durish definitely go home!
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Emerald S
Emerald S
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hum? intervention is always a challenge, but even a mechanic should know use of better tool/s does make a difference ,that too is subject to what is usable. that paradigm you mentioned is confusing reference to the section of < and when you,re done blowing up those things~ and killing "those people---etc> . is that the concern which is more frustrating, that part or is that the stand back and watch , nothing within the depth of intervention is comfortable , not easy to reflect back upon in the short time / perhaps the quest for quick solutions is more challenging . it took a long time for the Declaration of Independence /now reading it WELL that can take time too
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CWO3 Retired
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I am with you on that statement. But as you know in today's society especially our elected officials that we the people choose whom they want to represent them is causing this so-called wide spread caos. If we only had men and women who we elected had some service time and real gonads then we wouldn't have this problem. Right? My opinion only.
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
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CWO3 (Join to see) - I totally agree.
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SGT David T.
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One of our biggest problems is that we don't understand the cultures in the places we fight. I have seen this time and time again where we try to apply American ideals to people who aren't Americans. Another problem I see is that military leaders by and far don't study the history nearly enough. Right before I deployed to Afghanistan, none of my leaders had any clue that the Soviets fought a long brutal war there. And time and time again, we make the same mistakes. I think we need to really exercise more care before getting involved in places around the world. We should only involve ourselves in direct threats to us or our allies and let the chips fall where they may for the rest. It is not our job to depose dictators. Their governments exist with (at least on a nominal level) by the consent of the governed. It is not up to us to involve ourselves in the internal affairs of other nations. I am not suggesting we be totally isolationist, but we need to pick our wars carefully. Look at the last 15 years, what have we really accomplished other than depleting our resources and creating conditions that led to negative 2nd and 3rd order effects?
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SGT David T.
SGT David T.
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COL Lee Flemming - Doh....lol I haven't had enough coffee yet lol
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SFC Chief Executive Officer (Ceo)
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Food for thought.
In the early days of Afghanistan, one SF ODA (574) embedded with the Indig with air power took over most of the Southern half of the country. ODA's with the Indig were winning the war. Other ODAs were deployed or deploying all over the country and the war was going well with, then COL Mulholland (now LTG (retired)) running things (Task Force Dagger). I knew him as a CPT and he was a hell of a team leader and Company CDR. Anyway, when "big Army" came in with all their bureaucratic bullshit, rules and regulations, etc, things started going downhill.
This was because, like David said, regular Army doesn't understand the cultures of places like these and are not equipped to fight like this in Low intensity conflicts.
Just my $.02.
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SGT Eric Knutson
SGT Eric Knutson
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SFC (Join to see) - Totally agree with you SFC, Divisions are made to break the will and destroy their toys wholesale, SF (if allowed to do their jobs correctly) quietly change things usually for the better. Not saying that they don't need a good solid QRF nearby (Rangers would be my optimal suggestion to keep it small). But large formations leave a certain deavastation in their wake (it is the nature of the beast)
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
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I agree. Your assessment about being unprepared, culturally, in addition to our government having developed an unwarranted hatred of the culture before raking military action, shines a light on what has exacerbated and in some cases created a more complex ongoing problem, regionally.
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Why doesn't military intervention in foreign conflicts work? Or does it?
CPT Aaron Kletzing
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hey, the guy in that picture is from my old company that I deployed with to Iraq. small world! :-)
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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CPT Aaron Kletzing wow, very small world. I actually wondered who the SM was when I chose the picture!
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MCPO Roger Collins
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Why do we have intelligent people like the responders to this topic and elect people to represent us that can't consider anything except the next election?
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
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Didn't someone already address that problem i.e. not enough veterans running for office? (She says in humor, but actually means it.)
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MCPO Roger Collins
MCPO Roger Collins
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SGT Mary G. - what is preventing them from running? I believe I know, but why do you think more don't run for political office more often.
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
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Hmm . . . maybe why a whole lot of other people don't . . . which could be any number of reasons, maybe like not thinking they have enough political experience, or connections; being afraid to lose and afraid to win; the cost of campaigning in time and money when employed in a 9-5; the time demand for doing the job the way it needs to be done once elected; the stress on family.
What do you believe is preventing veterans from running MCPO Roger Collins?
Whatever the reasons, especially when candidates who do run lack integrity, any ability to be diplomatic, have personal agendas they are motivated to superimpose, prevaricate, cheat, and are basically dishonest, have zilch military experience, and have criminal records in some cases, then what's to lose, trying? When almost anyone would be a better candidate none of the possible reasons I mentioned matter so much if a candidate is not buying votes, and is willing to take his or her turn representing a constituency.
Professional politicians don't see it that way, but our nation wasn't founded with the expectation that professional politicians would be entrusted by their constituents, neighbors, friends, and families to be running the show, was it?
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MCPO Roger Collins
MCPO Roger Collins
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SGT Mary G. - Excellent response, you left little for me to add. The few people that I know that successfully ran for Congress were both well known as medical professionals which helps greatly. If a vet had the $3-500K to spend on a political campaign, had the time to run for local offices and gain acceptance of the party of their choice, it could work. But, as you note, the first thing a vet does is get a job to support the family. Some do it successfully, but it is seldom on the list of things to do.
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MSG Michael McEleney
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I think we've failed in Iraq because there was no plan for what was to follow after the defeat and ouster of Saddam Huessein. What was left was a power vacuum which brought out the Sunni and Shia factions to fight against each other. In Japan and Germany, the Allies set up governments and an infrastructure to bring normalcy back within 5 years of the wars end.
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Cpl Phil Hsueh
Cpl Phil Hsueh
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Exactly! I've said the same thing myself, we should have gone in expecting that we would win and plan for what to do afterwards, instead it seemed that the powers that be didn't have a clue and while they tried to figure out what to do our troops had to just sit there and watch the country fall apart because they couldn't do anything except sit there and watch. Had we stepped in right from the moment we took Baghdad, established martial law with the US military acting as a temporary government and police force it's entirely possible that the insurgency might not have developed, esp. if we weren't so stupid as to fire the entire Iraqi military.

What they should have done with the Iraqi military was disarm them and kept them confined to their barracks but continue to pay them. In the meanwhile, you sack and/or arrest the known bad apples, promote their juniors to replace them and slowly work on the whole de-Baathification process.
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COL John Hudson
COL John Hudson
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In Germany, Patton got his backside chewed again for using former Nazis in government positions...actually a really good management decision, but a very poor 'political' one.
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SGT Mary G.
SGT Mary G.
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Let's remember that "normalcy" prior to U.S. military involvement was the vicious, genocidal, ongoing problem of Sunni and Shia politicos using and abusing religion to fight one another for control of the government. A dictator has the home court advantage in such circumstance. Regardless of the success of establishing the level of civilization that was established and provided to the population (e.g. universal health care, and universal higher education), Iraq was still a vicious dictatorship. After the ousting of a dictator, it is difficult enough for a population to learn new ways to move forward and self-govern without death and destruction in the wake of those who seek power in government. But when another nation that is deficient in understanding the history and culture is using an occupying military to teach those new ways, it is not surprising the old "tried and true" familiar Sunni Shia conflict filled the power vacuum as a method for rabble rousers to try to take control of government during an occupation that seems to have no clear direction.
The type of occupation established after WWII in Japan and Germany would have been the way to go. However, absent the diplomacy, support, and reparations of an official end to a declared world war; and given having intervened in an ongoing civil conflict (the Sunni Shia rabble rousers) which has turned into an occupation with no clear start nor end while it remains an armed conflict, that type of occupation has not been possible.
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LTC Paul Labrador
LTC Paul Labrador
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We had a "plan".....but the "plan" was based on an the inaccurate assessment that the Iraqis were able to fix things on their own after we removed Saddam.
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Cpl Jeff N.
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The purpose of war is to destroy an enemies ability to fight once diplomacy has failed and it is determined it is in our national interests to send in the armed forces to execute the mission of taking them out. Sometimes there are coalitions/allies, sometimes not.

The definition of war varies from the definition of intervention. Intervention can mean a lot of different things depending on who you ask.

Our largest challenge is having the fortitude to utterly destroy an enemy and all of it's war making capacity (recruiting, financial, political, economic etc). We try to do as little damage as possible, which I understand makes everyone feel a little better but the reality is the "intervention ends up going on far longer than we planned, interest is lost, winning is not well defined etc.

You can look at Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam (to a lesser degree Korea) as good examples of what not to do. It is no that our armed forces are not winning on the ground when they engage the enemy. We certainly could vanquish them if let loose to do so. It is that we do not have the political courage to vanquish them and their supporters absolutely. The enemy knows how to drag it out. They know we will lose interest and eventually go away. There is proof to support this notion. The know our history better than we do.

They understand insurgency and how to do it. We talk counter insurgency a lot but we seem unable to counter their insurgencies completely. Not that I don't think we could it always comes back to a matter of political courage to do what needs to be done and not keep looking at polls or worrying about how we will be viewed by some.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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Cpl Jeff N. you are absolutely right about the differences between war and intervention...that is why I asked the question. What are we really prepared for, trained for and resourced for versus what do we actually do?
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Cpl Jeff N.
Cpl Jeff N.
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COL Lee Flemming I think we can do both war and interventions if we define an intervention as a mission to do a very specific task and then leave (rescue hostages such as Grenada, depose a leader such as Panama etc.). An intervention should be a task or a pretty short mission <6 months. Once you are there longer than 6 months you start to participate in the local internal politics and other issues (building things, protecting things etc). We need to get in, get out, quit messing about.

Iraq and Afghanistan went from likely interventions to longer term incursions but not all out war. We have been engaged in both for 15 years trying to do things that are likely well meaning but perhaps fool hearty. Nation building and trying to install democracy in a region that only understands ruling tribal governments, theocracies and strongmen may not be do-able. They need to do these things for themselves.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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Cpl Jeff N. - solid points Marine!! The examples of Grenada, Panama and even the first Gulf War are great examples of classic interventions with limited duration objectives.
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CWO3 Retired
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COL Lee Flemming, Sir so true are your thoughts on what we actually do and what happens later on In today's society, we expect our Nations Armed Forces to come to the aid of other Countries in need of help. But should we also bear the burden of making that Country a democracy. In my opinion, no. Why? Because our Armed Forces are not meant to be building Nations after it falls to the way side. J.K.Kaupe, Jr.
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CWO3 Retired
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COL Lee Flemming - Well COL Lee Flemming, I guess we are in agreement that we as a Professional Soldier's, Sailor's, Airmen, Coast Guardmen's, and Marine's all have one goal To defend our Nation from foreign countries and domestic in counters. We Officer's are privileged to serve our Country not someone else's. We all have one profession and that is the Profession of Arms. Need I say more?
Semper Fidelis,
J.K.Kaupe, Jr.
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MSG Mechanic 2nd
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our country did just the same ww2 germany, itally, and japan we did rebuild and it worked, but now we are in a different culture, they have been at war for what thousands of years and we expect to change it, we do what needs to be done and get out or not even go, you want freedom then fight for it, we'll help to a point but its up to you
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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CWO3 (Join to see) on target and well said Sir!
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SGT Eric Knutson
SGT Eric Knutson
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MSG (Join to see) - But MSG, the difference with rebuilding Europe and Japan afterwards was that they had be brought entirely to their knees, with the certain knowledge (especially Japan) that the only other option was utter devastation. We would still try to spare the cities as much as possible, but it was understood that WE did not put the ball bearing plant next to the school, they did. Now they hid right next to or even inside the school and no one will let us touch it. They have so many places to run and hide that we are not allowed to chase them to ground. it is like Viet Nam all over again, just on a bigger scale
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MSG Military Police
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It depends:
1. What is the mission?
2. Is it achievable with an actual way to measure it's success?
3. Is it supported by the People of the foreign land?
4. Is it supported by the People of the United States?
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CPT Pedro Meza
CPT Pedro Meza
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Hell you had to bring up things we didn't do in the 80's.
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MSG Military Police
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Maj Marty Hogan
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I think the military does its job and does it well. Then the politicians step in and apologize and return most of the areas to the same state we found then in. No real strategy in an exit plan. The biggest obstacle we face is in most areas we have been in since 1991 don't share our values and have always been ruled. It is about survival for them and not so much the freedom to chose.
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COL Lee Flemming
COL Lee Flemming
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Survival...so true! Thanks for the post Maj Marty Hogan!
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