Posted on May 28, 2015
Why don't all members of the Air Force have to be fully qualified to be a rifleman in case of hostile events?
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I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited 9 y ago
Posted 9 y ago
Responses: 914
CW4 Guy Butler
When I was on Balad in 2008-2009, the Air Force would have a "GI Joe" day where every Airman would carry a weapon and full battle-rattle (but no ammunition; they had no concept of "muzzling"). The rest of the time, unarmed.
The only exception was the security force, who were armed 24/7.
The only exception was the security force, who were armed 24/7.
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CPT Ahmed Faried
Chief Butler, I am still in awe that this is actually a thing. I just can't make sense of it. I mean what is the point of force protection if your airmen are essentially sitting ducks. Which is essentially what you are if your profieciency with the M4/M16 is as limited as the Air Force seems to have it.
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MSgt (Join to see)
CPT Ahmed Faried - Yes sir, this is for real. The AF High Ups do not think well enough for the rest of the branch to ensure they are all provided annual training on basic weapons marksmanship fundamentals.
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Members of the Air Force DO QUALIFY on their Primary (and in some cases, Primary and Secondary weapon) prior to deploying. The Base Combat Arms Section conducts weapon classes daily, and at times must teach multiple weapons or courses of fire in the same day. Unless each Combat Arms section were tripled in size (most CATM shops are 4-7 personnel) and had additional firing ranges built and maintained at each base (it's hard enough to manage the ranges we currently have) there is NO WAY possible to train every Tom, Dick, and Mary in the Air Force each year. --- Perhaps, If more Airman adopted the 'warrior ethos' and purchased an AR15 and stayed proficient with it throughout the year, they would come to a weapon class much more prepared and be less likely to embarrass themselves in front of other services. - Retired Combat Arms Instructor (21 Years)
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MSgt R Gpl
Sgt Joe Butler - My suggestion was just that....a suggestion but I get your point. Equally, the Amn With the $50,000 Pick-up with a lift kit and iphone that was released yesterday has no time to google 'M4 characteristics' rent or borrow an AR15, or even 'brush up' on nomenclature and cycle of operations before his yearly rifle class. A bit of motivation and due diligence goes a long way.
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Sgt Joe Butler
MSgt, thank you for your comment. I also get your point. When I was in, there was no such thing as a $50,000 pick-up nor even cell phones, of course. Most of my fellow airman were driving old clunkers that you had to fix yourself. I agree that "a bit of motivation and due diligence goes a long way", as you said, and I would add priorities.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
SrA Clifford Burnett - My folks and I were more interested in getting the mission done and getting the training necessary to do so the latter being difficult for my entire career because out of a dozen assignment only had one that was even close to fully manned, just getting the day to day done was an exercise of getting more done with less.
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LtCol Bruce Janis
As noted before, I was the RO at USMCAS Yuma. He took a week to qualify with the M-16, .45 and shotgun. Marines whose skills over the year has deteriorated were able to qualify after that week’s training. I can’t believe the USAF aren’t capable of doing the same
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I'm not sure if my original post was posted..
Anyway, I'm a 13ish year SF troop here deployed to many Combat Zones (yes and not really nice ones either, ive been in actual combat) and now a reserve CATM instructor. I see first hand the issues we have on a regular basis. Most people in the AF don't enlist to be 'fighters' the enlist to get out of the house or college and this is the easiest and best money making way to do so. Most think "I'll just wait for SF to get here to save me, that's their job right"?. This has actually need said to me. Right frome the gate we need to create a pass/fail ground combat inviornment for EVERYONE and enforce it. When I was taking fire everyone ran and hid but we kept fighting. It's sickening.
Anyway, I'm a 13ish year SF troop here deployed to many Combat Zones (yes and not really nice ones either, ive been in actual combat) and now a reserve CATM instructor. I see first hand the issues we have on a regular basis. Most people in the AF don't enlist to be 'fighters' the enlist to get out of the house or college and this is the easiest and best money making way to do so. Most think "I'll just wait for SF to get here to save me, that's their job right"?. This has actually need said to me. Right frome the gate we need to create a pass/fail ground combat inviornment for EVERYONE and enforce it. When I was taking fire everyone ran and hid but we kept fighting. It's sickening.
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The Air Force already spent it's allowance on the F-35.
Development - $59.2B
Procurement - $261B
Operations & Sustainment- $590B
Unit Cost - $98M
Now if you can get that platform to work properly, the Army & Marines will gladly spring for the bullets --about $0.10 each.
Development - $59.2B
Procurement - $261B
Operations & Sustainment- $590B
Unit Cost - $98M
Now if you can get that platform to work properly, the Army & Marines will gladly spring for the bullets --about $0.10 each.
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You know, I was in 22 years, and I had to qualify at least every 3 years, and EVERY time I deployed. The Air Force has a distinct mission, we are not ground soldiers, and Airmen who do link up and interact with ground soldiers and operations get the training they need. Stop trying to pigeon hole the military into a generalized stereotype. It is mission diversity and distinctive combat capabilities that make the Air Force, and the US Military as a whole the most effective in the world. We are NOT riflemen first -that is why we are called Airmen. If you want to be a rifleman first go green.
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A1C Mathew Wood
I respectfully disagree. If you are deployed there is always the risk of being overrun. Maybe not as much of wars in recent years. Even if the Army, Marines, and Security forces are on post it's better that every military member be proficient in the standard arms. Fight to the last man.
Yes the Air Force has a specific mission, but it is a military branch, not a civilian organization.
Yes the Air Force has a specific mission, but it is a military branch, not a civilian organization.
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SMSgt Michael Smith
What part of you miss the part that, back in my day, if overrun we have to destroy classified equipment, and we are not allowed to leave the equipment room. In the event of attack we were to report to the comm center. We guarantee die doing our job. When I had to go to a forward base any foot travel was with the particular branch’s “tough guys”, one time a marine gunny insisted that I practice with a handgun, 2000 rounds over a day and a half, with training, until I was passible. No rifle though. He furnished me with a grenade launcher instead, almost point and shoot. Had to use it an a couple of engagements. I kept the handgun as well, passing it on to my replacement.
Now, think about this- There was one person killed on the USS Pueblo when the N. Koreans captured it. He was the tech responsible for the classified comm equipment and was killed with a .45 cal handgun, an American weapon.
Now, think about this- There was one person killed on the USS Pueblo when the N. Koreans captured it. He was the tech responsible for the classified comm equipment and was killed with a .45 cal handgun, an American weapon.
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Fog of time may be affecting me here, but I recall having to qualify on the M-16 when flying B-52 missions during Vietnam and again when assigned to a MUNSS in Turkey. Think AF bases need to qualify based upon assignment vs. qualify everyone.
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MSgt Harold Robinson
Sir, I'm an old SAC troop beginning in 1952 at Fairchild AFB. I trained B-52 aircrews in combative measures (Judo) and Air Police who worked the flight line, not law enforcement. All of the instructors under Gen's Le May and Tom Powers were weapons qualified and for good reason. We were in essence, escape and evasion instructors. I deployed to Vietnam in March 68. Part of my pre-deployment checklist was to qualify with the M-16. I was already qualified with the 38 back at Bergstrom AFB. I qualified with the M-16 in 71 at Hickam AFB before going to U-Tapao RTNB, and again in 1975 when assigned to Ko Kha AS, a RADOM Operation. I wore several hats including supporting security police training/tactics. We fired at a Royal Thai Special Forces Base near Chiang Rai. Included were US Coast Guard personnel from the LORAN Station outside of Lampang, Thailand. Several Royal Thai Security Battalion guards also re-qualified. If I wasn't required to familiarize myself with weapons, I would have jumped at every opportunity to do so anyway. The USAF is mobile and every member regardless what duty they have as a primary, is still a "Fighter". In the army, every soldier is an infantryman. I don't go along with the premise that there isn't time for an airman to practice. Doesn't have to be a standard military issue. Pellet and or BB guns are perfectly designed to keep a shooter sharp.
Again, it is a matter of knowing what is best for you and moreover for the service. Only the fittest survive and fitness means more than bench pressing your weight. Thank you for your service.
Again, it is a matter of knowing what is best for you and moreover for the service. Only the fittest survive and fitness means more than bench pressing your weight. Thank you for your service.
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TSgt James Carson
Sir, you are correct. everyone who went overseas had to qualify, though when the base may be over run at times, you were on your own. The Air Force was not equipped to issue needed weaponry very quickly. Logistics was lacking.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
MSgt Harold Robinson - Sounds like you & I were at U-tapao at same time. First tour was 71, then back every year thru 74.
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gentlemen lets look at it this way things are changing drastically with terror groups popping up everywhere now days. it is getting tantamount that every service member is in jeopardy no matter where they are. and it is foolish to believe that a certain mos or duty station is not a target. i believe it is a disservice to all our personnel not to be trained with at least one type of weapon. look at the recruiting center in tennessee. it is of no tactical value but it was shot up any way. do any of you really believe that only certain places and mos is targeted? no one and i mean no one in a u.s. uniform is immune to being targeted. i think it is foolish not to have every service member trained in at least one type of firearm if not two one pistol and one rifle. they do not need to make expert but they need to know enough to get it on target in the right direction and locked and loaded on the right target. even if they can't hit a target more than 25m away at least they can defend against a terrorist at closer ranges where they will most likely encounter them and not shot there head or feet off in doing so with proper training. and it may not even be on base when it happens it could be a recruiting center or some other none essential location but only a target of opportunity where it is more than likely a gun free location normally. it is time we forgot gun free military locations and have our personnel trained and have if nothing else a weapons safe and weapons in them. i do not like the thought of leaving any warrior unarmed and not able to protect themselves.
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MSgt Paul Freed
The sad part is, as a fat old retired Master Sergeant, I now have an M-4 clone in 5.56 NATO, Mossberg 12 Gauge, and a Smith & Wesson 40 to defend myself (and my loved ones) with. I'm better armed as a private citizen than I ever was as a military member in a Hostile Fire Zone. SMH.
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SSgt Scott Ezra
Do you know how much training has to go into a scenario like that? Not to mention you would have to do refreshers quite often.
Its far more than just learning how to operate, clean, and qualify with a service weapon and that would be expensive and time consuming enough without proper training on how to engage a terrorist or active shooter situation.
First of all, unless everyone was in possession of a service weapon at all times what would be the point? It doesn't matter how well you're trained if you don't have quick access to the weapon. Where would all these weapons be while the people were doing their actual job? Can you imagine a problem with all of these weapons be easily accessible and not secured? Do you envision every office having an armorer just sitting there waiting for that scenario to play out to dispense the weapons?
Can you imagine the crossfire and targeting of innocents because everyone is running around with a weapon? It would be insanity.
Its far more than just learning how to operate, clean, and qualify with a service weapon and that would be expensive and time consuming enough without proper training on how to engage a terrorist or active shooter situation.
First of all, unless everyone was in possession of a service weapon at all times what would be the point? It doesn't matter how well you're trained if you don't have quick access to the weapon. Where would all these weapons be while the people were doing their actual job? Can you imagine a problem with all of these weapons be easily accessible and not secured? Do you envision every office having an armorer just sitting there waiting for that scenario to play out to dispense the weapons?
Can you imagine the crossfire and targeting of innocents because everyone is running around with a weapon? It would be insanity.
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SSgt (Join to see)
Before central arms rooms, there were rifle racks in the barracks. Limited ammo maintained by the NCO. Frequent training of daily jobs while carrying, or stacking weapons close by. Weapons guards when not carried by each member. Today, we have FATS simulators, sub caliber devices (.22 cal). Civilian police offer their people a one day active shooter tactical course. Sort of a Hogan's Alley with live ammo and small unit tactics. Yet, we are still lacking in marksmanship and weapons instruction.
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If the base is overrun, all the Marines are dead. Should all Sailors need to learn land navigation? Should all Soldiers learn water survival? Should all Marines need to learn how to read? ;)
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SrA A.A. Hall
1stSgt Nelson Kerr - I started my enlistment in 76, But I will admit that my flight was setup differently, because we did most of the things that our male counterparts did. Maybe the Bases that USAF personnel are stationed at make the rules of who has rifle & small arms training. Or maybe it was a persons MOS that it was necessary, All I know is that I received lots of training in the M16 & small arms on the range several times a year. And I loved it, but I grew up in a family with several military personnel, Army, Navy & Air Force, and we all hunted as well.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
SrA A.A. Hall - in basic train you received two day training and shot only slightly more rounds that it takes to really sight in the weapon. Add in you annual train at that time and repeat that for a decade and the total will be less than an Army Private gets in on tial training. Shooting is only a very small percentage of whay the term "Rifleman" means.
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(*excuse me please*) WTF !!!!!!
Have most of you lost your minds? OIF / OEF refined where and how Battle Lines are drawn. Look at how much fighting occurred between COBs before all of Victory was closed into one complete entity.
How many Sailors and Airmen work other jobs during OIF / OEF with or assigned to Army and Marines that worked out side of there MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) ?
I know that my unit CoC went to a Marine Major General, and when I wasn't working as one of his Battle NCOs I worked under a Navy Captain. What do you think the odds are of working for a Navy Captain who was a Submariner? Wonder when we got stealth submarines ... because I don't remember see any in Baghdad?
Bottom line is every service member should in fact train with the US Military whether it's an M16 - xyz or an M4 - xyz; just because you are not issued this weapon in garrison does not mean that you might not have to pick one up in a convoy ambush. When I say "in fact train with"; I mean all working components and proper nomenclature for those components.
Does it matter if the first round in the magazine is on the left or the right? Too late you and maybe your buddy might have been shot; because it does not matter if they are loaded with top round one the left only that bullet facing away from you !!!
At a minimum everyone in uniform needs to know how the weapon works and live fire with required qualification
I've got to get off my soapbox now before my head pops
Have most of you lost your minds? OIF / OEF refined where and how Battle Lines are drawn. Look at how much fighting occurred between COBs before all of Victory was closed into one complete entity.
How many Sailors and Airmen work other jobs during OIF / OEF with or assigned to Army and Marines that worked out side of there MOS (Military Occupational Specialty) ?
I know that my unit CoC went to a Marine Major General, and when I wasn't working as one of his Battle NCOs I worked under a Navy Captain. What do you think the odds are of working for a Navy Captain who was a Submariner? Wonder when we got stealth submarines ... because I don't remember see any in Baghdad?
Bottom line is every service member should in fact train with the US Military whether it's an M16 - xyz or an M4 - xyz; just because you are not issued this weapon in garrison does not mean that you might not have to pick one up in a convoy ambush. When I say "in fact train with"; I mean all working components and proper nomenclature for those components.
Does it matter if the first round in the magazine is on the left or the right? Too late you and maybe your buddy might have been shot; because it does not matter if they are loaded with top round one the left only that bullet facing away from you !!!
At a minimum everyone in uniform needs to know how the weapon works and live fire with required qualification
I've got to get off my soapbox now before my head pops
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SPC David S.
The 1.6 Billion rounds of ammo for Homeland Security more than likely got shipped to forces fighting Assad.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-begins-weapons-delivery-to-syrian-rebels/2013/09/11/9fcf2ed8-1b0c-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/cia-begins-weapons-delivery-to-syrian-rebels/2013/09/11/9fcf2ed8-1b0c-11e3-a628-7e6dde8f889d_story.html
CIA begins weapons delivery to Syrian rebels
The U.S. is also shipping new types of nonlethal gear to opposition forces at a time of heightened tensions.
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Sgt Vance Bonds
PO2 Jeffery Marcussen Sr Yeah.
Where are all those rounds?
The Post Office didn't shoot that up for training
Where are all those rounds?
The Post Office didn't shoot that up for training
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SPC David S.
Sgt Vance Bonds - All I know is 1.6 billion rounds would be enough to sustain a hot war for 20+ years.
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Sgt Vance Bonds
SPC David S. That's what I'm worried about.
Lied to about it....Why? This should worry everyone.
Lied to about it....Why? This should worry everyone.
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During my 24 years I too was concerned about this, fortunately I was required to qualify annually at least. For a short time we were required required to qualify on the the M16, 38 cal revolver and due my job, also on 38 Stub Nose used for concealed carry. The latter part of my career it was the M4,M16,M92 and12 ga. Often when deploying as a squadron all support personnel would have to go get required so they could be armed when required. I knew people who had been in 10 plus years and the last they touched a weapon was in basic. To feel more at ease when were out on a mission with extra people who weren't part of my crew, I always made a point to ask when was the last time they qualified, what weapons they were qualified in did they think they could use one without shooting one of my crew. Used to be surprised at the answers I got , but got use to it and pressed on. To this day I feel that you put on the uniform you are required to be able to pick up weapon, no matter which one, and be able to defend yourself and your bothers and sisters. Call me old school if you want. But if stand in front of you, you should at least have my back cov
ered.
ered.
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