Posted on May 28, 2015
SSgt Security Forces
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Carbine backwards mag
I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited 9 y ago
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Responses: 914
MSgt Joseph Rende
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Because some dumbass in SAC Headquarters convinced other dumbasses that they coud save money by not arming all military personnel assigned to the bases. SAC was the leader in this idea.
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MSgt Joseph Rende
MSgt Joseph Rende
7 y
enough said
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SSgt James Tadlock
SSgt James Tadlock
7 y
Well there's the answer I came from the 17th Bomb Wing.
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TSgt Ed Turner
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My leadership class project addressed this exact issue back in the 90's. Although our fellow Reservists were supposed to qualify every three years, the average maintenance airman had not done so for eight. Although they individually felt confidence in their own abilities, several expressed more concern about fellow troopers than a potential enemy.
Although airmen aren't expected to withstand a protracted siege, we should at least be able to "hold the fort until the cavalry arrives".
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SSgt James Tadlock
SSgt James Tadlock
7 y
Running for a bunker ain't always the best thing.
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SSgt James Tadlock
SSgt James Tadlock
7 y
I went into the latrine late one night and a rocket hit the flight line. I just stayed inside the latrine until it all passed over.
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SrA Rex Brown
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Is this a new thing that other specialties are not being trained to use a weapon? When I was in there were times that I was at the range teaching others how to use different types of weapons. I also was security/ law enforcement forces. I spent a lot of time on the range because of the number of weapons that I was qualified on so I was training others on techniques of cleaning and stripping it down to put it back together. If they have stopped this then they have made a mistake it is good for all members to know how to handle a weapon.
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SMSgt Roger Horton
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When in doubt give your ammo to a MARINE. Better yet, reload his mags for him.
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Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen
7 y
Hey we get paid to fly over the ground, not slug through it.
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SMSgt Roger Horton
SMSgt Roger Horton
7 y
Spent lots of days in Fl. Air Nation Guard slugging thru the mud. Wouldn't trade it for anything except to do it as a Marine.
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PO1 Charles Smith
PO1 Charles Smith
>1 y
You do realize that the majority of Military personnel will be unable to reload that magazine...
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Sgt John McRae
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I was in the Secuirty Police in the late 70's, early 80's and think most people join the Air Force more for the technical aspects of the job rather than being a fighter. The majority would rather leave that up to those of us in the Security Forces since that is our specialty. But I do agree that everyone should be required to qualify each year with basic weapons just in case.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
1stSgt Nelson Kerr
7 y
Annual qualification is a very good idea, I just find the idea of everyone being qualified as a rifleman a bit silly.
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Sgt John McRae
Sgt John McRae
7 y
I had a maintenance Sgt. thank me one day for being an SP because he said he had been in Vietnam when the VC overran their base. He said every SP (Air Police at that time) took their posts and most all were killed and the maintenance guys had to take up weapons to defend the base. He was impressed that all the "Sky cops" stayed on their posts and fought. That is why I think everyone should have to qualify.
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SrA Joel Lachapelle
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I was in communications. Let's concentrate on the job we were trained in.
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MSgt Harold Robinson
MSgt Harold Robinson
7 y
By your rank, you are fairly young and don't have much experience with contingency actions during periods when there aren't sufficient numbers of people to accomplish jobs such as munitions loading and other tippy toes duties that make you perform with precision. That happened during the Korean War and Vietnam War. Ask any flight line NCO from that era or a B-29, B-36 or B-52 pilot about their concerns if the cross-trainees got it right. Joel, you'll never know until it happens, what is going to happen. Insofar as Vietnam was concerned, I missed the sapper attack at TSN airfield outside of Saigon by days, read about some other intrusions and experienced the sapper attack at U-Tapao when they cut the wire and infiltrated onto the flight line. If I remember correctly, your field used to have buku remote mountain top deployments. There were weapons assigned to each Comm outfit, usually small arms for officers and assault weapons for the airmen. As an SrA, you are just getting started, you do have a dog in the fight, but so far you have been lucky enough to be on a short leash. If I am in error, Gomenasai. MSGT sends.
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Capt Jason S.
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When I was in the 82nd. I learned formations and how to leap, cover and scan. I took a group of medics and pushed back a smaller group of rangers who where picking off my unit one by one during a training exercise. My 1st Sgt was clueless to what I was doing and open fired on me and disrupted my attempt to push the invasion out of the compound perimeter. They left anyways. Another time I took two other medics and captured a ranger by out flanking him. He was surprised that I knew how to do these maneuvers.
I grew up in the Country and played war with my brother. We watched war shows all the time. I listened to WWII, Korean and Vietnam Vet stories. They told me what happened, the mistakes that where made. I played strategy games.
I could hit every target spot on up to 250 yards because I could see the bullet hit or miss the target. Now at 300 yards I could not see it because it was to far away. They test my vision to be at least 20/10, they told me that they did not test people anymore than that unless they where going to be pilots.
When I went in to qualify I hit every target never missed until I did the burst where I actually only hit 3 out of 9. The M-4 is so easy to use compared to the M-16 it is amazing. The scope was incredible compared to having to qualify with the old iron sites. Yet as a Nurse they let me pass because I had a perfect score before the burst. I was the best marksman in the class. In the 82nd when I went through we never fired burst at a target to hit it. That was a new concept. Burst was just fired for fun and for effect. We could see that when burst was fired that the weapon pulled up. Yet we never learned or where taught how to adjust for that like they do now.
My Doc and my RT where poor shots and told me that they would be better at hitting someone if they threw the weapon at the person than actually fired the weapon. I told them just let me do the shooting then if we ever had to do so.
I am glad I went into the 82nd because they taught everyone tactics because we where all first and foremost combat infantrymen then I was a medic. Even though I told myself I was a medic first. They treated us as infantrymen for the most part. We did security, we dug and layed in fox holes. Set up concertina wire.
In the Air Force I learned almost nothing. When I brought up security concerns, as I was taught in the 82nd to do. I was told to keep my mouth shut because I was only a nurse and they laughed at me. twice until the rockets where landing and people lives where at risk the first time and the second time when they found explosives in a bunker right before an attack. Yes, the Air Force has a lot to learn. Everyone, is part of the security team and should be listen too and trained. No, one should be blown off even if they are just a nurse, they might just have been an Army 82nd Airborne paratrooper who did security before they became a nurse!
I feel your frustration and I know lives have been lost because people are not trained and we don't do the right thing which could have saved us lives and money. Yet we waste money in other areas! I have seen people die after information was given that could have saved them by me and other officers who had prior experience (Prior Special Forces, Engineers and so on) Yet we where told by members of Congress that, things where handled and the people at the pentagon knew better than the people on the ground.
After several people died and a few months went by they did some patches, and took a few of our recommendations into consideration. Always to little to late. They let people die and spent millions doing nothing. Same old thing. It still bothers me and I think it will the rest of my life but what else could we have done when no one else would do anything even all the way at the top (Congress and White House)! God bless all who died and forgive the people who could have saved them. I tried and many others did the same, good officers who cared but where just beaten down.
The system never changes.
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Capt Jason S.
Capt Jason S.
7 y
My father was a Marine. He was always a better shot than me until his sight started to go. I was a great shot in the Army. Our Ancestor was in the First Sharp Shooter Unit in the Union that Demonstrated for President Lincoln. My Uncle had 2 grand daughters by the time they where 12 they could shoot moving targets better than almost any Army guy I knew. Their is a difference between shooting at targets and being an expert, shooting at moving targets and shooting at live animals, shooting at people, shooting at people who are shooting back at you and being a sharp shooter in a war. Each one is a different skill that you have to master. I was am expert shot in the prone position with pop up or stationary targets in the Army. I could also hit just about any target some one threw up into the air next to me as my Air Force Flight Commander could attest to until he threw the clay pigeon at my feet! Now I never was in a fire fight like my father in Vietnam, Thank God (As a Nurse, I wanted to save Lives). I did do a little rabbit hunting and bird shooting. So I know I can hit a live animal when needed. Yet I don't know if I could hit a person yet! So a Marine expert I am sure would not even question this last answer I have. Most Army experts would not. How many Air Force experts in weapons have actually killed people shooting at them? I wonder what the percentage is? I really don't think it matters the fine lines between these issues but if people are competitive they can discus which is harder to do and so fourth but as for me I was an Army qualified Expert on the M-16. The M-4 the Air Force I hit every shot on target except i missed 6 of 9 on burst. I should have failed and redone the course per AF regulations but the instructors said I passed because they had never seen anyone shoot that good outside SF AFC in the Air Force so far.
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Capt Jason S.
Capt Jason S.
7 y
When I was in the 82nd we also qualified at night fire and NBC fire. We did neither in the Air Force to get expert. I was also taught how to lay down suppressive fire and cross fire. In the Air Force none of these tactics where even mentioned. We also had exercise with laser tag weapons to practice shooting live targets and to differentiate friendly from enemy targets again my Air Force training had none of this included in it.
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Capt Jason S.
Capt Jason S.
7 y
So when comparing the training I had with the Army in the 82nd with service members who had missions with the rangers and special forces who now just wanted to be in a less intense unit in the 82nd Airborne. I would say my experience of being mentored by prior special forces and ranger trained and experienced personnel went far above and beyond anything the Air Force taught me. My father who was a Marine had taught me as a teenager just as much if not more about rifles as the Air Force class did before I deployed. As a medical personnel in the Army and Air Force, I feel the Army did a much better job in preparing for deployment than the Air Force did when I was in. Of course in the Army, I rarely did my medical skills as compared to when I was in the Air Force. Yet, I was given a lot more skill sets in the Army and we constantly trained on all of them.
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TSgt James Carson
TSgt James Carson
7 y
Our government representatives are doing all they can to remove the 2nd amendment. Once it's gone many people will die for lack of weapon training. Ask a British soldier or any others who never were around a fire arm, them required to use one. not enough time to properly train a person to hit a target. Look at Vietnam ammo records. 3300 rounds used on average per kill. People who trained with weapons as civilians usually had a better chance of staying alive.
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SSgt Centralized Sustainment Manager
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I just recently finished doing a firing course with Navy MPs around 120 to be exact. They could not hit the broadside of the barn. It took most of them around 10 mags worth of ammo to zero their targets. Even when we went to the qualifing range they still couldn't hit anything. The Army ended up almost running completely out of ammo on the range.
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TSgt Dan Decker
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When did that requirement get dropped for Air Force personnel? We had to qualify out of Basic or we didn't leave Basic. Then we had to qualify every year and before every deployment overseas. I was in the last flight to qualify on the M-1 Carbine out of Basic. The silly thing actually rattled if you had the temerity to shake it!
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TSgt James Carson
TSgt James Carson
>1 y
Sorry , Politicians and parents are failing our country. I was at Lackland AFB three years ago for a basic training graduation. I was amazed how the training has whimped out. I asked drill instructors and was told parents and politics killed much military training as we knew it. That's why our military looks so whimpy and sissie fied today. We no longer require backbone in the ranks.
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SrA Michael Dorwaldt
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As a flying buff crew chief I was m-16 and m-9 and 38 qualified. I thought of it as a good thing. However, I truly don't believe I would trust some people with a weapon of any sort, including a butter knife! I believe it was a Japanese officer who stated something to the effect of if they were to invade the Continental 48 they would be fighting a war they could not win, because if the fact of at that point the civilian population would blow them to hell.
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TSgt James Carson
TSgt James Carson
>1 y
And politicians and people are taking that ability away from us.
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SrA Michael Dorwaldt
SrA Michael Dorwaldt
>1 y
TSgt James Carson - they want to take away our rights so we can be controlled. The more rights they take the less choices we have, and some would be led down a road like a dog in a leash
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