Posted on May 28, 2015
Why don't all members of the Air Force have to be fully qualified to be a rifleman in case of hostile events?
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I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited >1 y ago
Posted >1 y ago
Responses: 907
When in doubt give your ammo to a MARINE. Better yet, reload his mags for him.
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SMSgt Roger Horton
Spent lots of days in Fl. Air Nation Guard slugging thru the mud. Wouldn't trade it for anything except to do it as a Marine.
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PO1 Charles Smith
You do realize that the majority of Military personnel will be unable to reload that magazine...
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I was in the Secuirty Police in the late 70's, early 80's and think most people join the Air Force more for the technical aspects of the job rather than being a fighter. The majority would rather leave that up to those of us in the Security Forces since that is our specialty. But I do agree that everyone should be required to qualify each year with basic weapons just in case.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
Annual qualification is a very good idea, I just find the idea of everyone being qualified as a rifleman a bit silly.
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Sgt John McRae
I had a maintenance Sgt. thank me one day for being an SP because he said he had been in Vietnam when the VC overran their base. He said every SP (Air Police at that time) took their posts and most all were killed and the maintenance guys had to take up weapons to defend the base. He was impressed that all the "Sky cops" stayed on their posts and fought. That is why I think everyone should have to qualify.
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I was in communications. Let's concentrate on the job we were trained in.
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MSgt Harold Robinson
By your rank, you are fairly young and don't have much experience with contingency actions during periods when there aren't sufficient numbers of people to accomplish jobs such as munitions loading and other tippy toes duties that make you perform with precision. That happened during the Korean War and Vietnam War. Ask any flight line NCO from that era or a B-29, B-36 or B-52 pilot about their concerns if the cross-trainees got it right. Joel, you'll never know until it happens, what is going to happen. Insofar as Vietnam was concerned, I missed the sapper attack at TSN airfield outside of Saigon by days, read about some other intrusions and experienced the sapper attack at U-Tapao when they cut the wire and infiltrated onto the flight line. If I remember correctly, your field used to have buku remote mountain top deployments. There were weapons assigned to each Comm outfit, usually small arms for officers and assault weapons for the airmen. As an SrA, you are just getting started, you do have a dog in the fight, but so far you have been lucky enough to be on a short leash. If I am in error, Gomenasai. MSGT sends.
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When I was in the 82nd. I learned formations and how to leap, cover and scan. I took a group of medics and pushed back a smaller group of rangers who where picking off my unit one by one during a training exercise. My 1st Sgt was clueless to what I was doing and open fired on me and disrupted my attempt to push the invasion out of the compound perimeter. They left anyways. Another time I took two other medics and captured a ranger by out flanking him. He was surprised that I knew how to do these maneuvers.
I grew up in the Country and played war with my brother. We watched war shows all the time. I listened to WWII, Korean and Vietnam Vet stories. They told me what happened, the mistakes that where made. I played strategy games.
I could hit every target spot on up to 250 yards because I could see the bullet hit or miss the target. Now at 300 yards I could not see it because it was to far away. They test my vision to be at least 20/10, they told me that they did not test people anymore than that unless they where going to be pilots.
When I went in to qualify I hit every target never missed until I did the burst where I actually only hit 3 out of 9. The M-4 is so easy to use compared to the M-16 it is amazing. The scope was incredible compared to having to qualify with the old iron sites. Yet as a Nurse they let me pass because I had a perfect score before the burst. I was the best marksman in the class. In the 82nd when I went through we never fired burst at a target to hit it. That was a new concept. Burst was just fired for fun and for effect. We could see that when burst was fired that the weapon pulled up. Yet we never learned or where taught how to adjust for that like they do now.
My Doc and my RT where poor shots and told me that they would be better at hitting someone if they threw the weapon at the person than actually fired the weapon. I told them just let me do the shooting then if we ever had to do so.
I am glad I went into the 82nd because they taught everyone tactics because we where all first and foremost combat infantrymen then I was a medic. Even though I told myself I was a medic first. They treated us as infantrymen for the most part. We did security, we dug and layed in fox holes. Set up concertina wire.
In the Air Force I learned almost nothing. When I brought up security concerns, as I was taught in the 82nd to do. I was told to keep my mouth shut because I was only a nurse and they laughed at me. twice until the rockets where landing and people lives where at risk the first time and the second time when they found explosives in a bunker right before an attack. Yes, the Air Force has a lot to learn. Everyone, is part of the security team and should be listen too and trained. No, one should be blown off even if they are just a nurse, they might just have been an Army 82nd Airborne paratrooper who did security before they became a nurse!
I feel your frustration and I know lives have been lost because people are not trained and we don't do the right thing which could have saved us lives and money. Yet we waste money in other areas! I have seen people die after information was given that could have saved them by me and other officers who had prior experience (Prior Special Forces, Engineers and so on) Yet we where told by members of Congress that, things where handled and the people at the pentagon knew better than the people on the ground.
After several people died and a few months went by they did some patches, and took a few of our recommendations into consideration. Always to little to late. They let people die and spent millions doing nothing. Same old thing. It still bothers me and I think it will the rest of my life but what else could we have done when no one else would do anything even all the way at the top (Congress and White House)! God bless all who died and forgive the people who could have saved them. I tried and many others did the same, good officers who cared but where just beaten down.
The system never changes.
I grew up in the Country and played war with my brother. We watched war shows all the time. I listened to WWII, Korean and Vietnam Vet stories. They told me what happened, the mistakes that where made. I played strategy games.
I could hit every target spot on up to 250 yards because I could see the bullet hit or miss the target. Now at 300 yards I could not see it because it was to far away. They test my vision to be at least 20/10, they told me that they did not test people anymore than that unless they where going to be pilots.
When I went in to qualify I hit every target never missed until I did the burst where I actually only hit 3 out of 9. The M-4 is so easy to use compared to the M-16 it is amazing. The scope was incredible compared to having to qualify with the old iron sites. Yet as a Nurse they let me pass because I had a perfect score before the burst. I was the best marksman in the class. In the 82nd when I went through we never fired burst at a target to hit it. That was a new concept. Burst was just fired for fun and for effect. We could see that when burst was fired that the weapon pulled up. Yet we never learned or where taught how to adjust for that like they do now.
My Doc and my RT where poor shots and told me that they would be better at hitting someone if they threw the weapon at the person than actually fired the weapon. I told them just let me do the shooting then if we ever had to do so.
I am glad I went into the 82nd because they taught everyone tactics because we where all first and foremost combat infantrymen then I was a medic. Even though I told myself I was a medic first. They treated us as infantrymen for the most part. We did security, we dug and layed in fox holes. Set up concertina wire.
In the Air Force I learned almost nothing. When I brought up security concerns, as I was taught in the 82nd to do. I was told to keep my mouth shut because I was only a nurse and they laughed at me. twice until the rockets where landing and people lives where at risk the first time and the second time when they found explosives in a bunker right before an attack. Yes, the Air Force has a lot to learn. Everyone, is part of the security team and should be listen too and trained. No, one should be blown off even if they are just a nurse, they might just have been an Army 82nd Airborne paratrooper who did security before they became a nurse!
I feel your frustration and I know lives have been lost because people are not trained and we don't do the right thing which could have saved us lives and money. Yet we waste money in other areas! I have seen people die after information was given that could have saved them by me and other officers who had prior experience (Prior Special Forces, Engineers and so on) Yet we where told by members of Congress that, things where handled and the people at the pentagon knew better than the people on the ground.
After several people died and a few months went by they did some patches, and took a few of our recommendations into consideration. Always to little to late. They let people die and spent millions doing nothing. Same old thing. It still bothers me and I think it will the rest of my life but what else could we have done when no one else would do anything even all the way at the top (Congress and White House)! God bless all who died and forgive the people who could have saved them. I tried and many others did the same, good officers who cared but where just beaten down.
The system never changes.
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Capt Jason S.
My father was a Marine. He was always a better shot than me until his sight started to go. I was a great shot in the Army. Our Ancestor was in the First Sharp Shooter Unit in the Union that Demonstrated for President Lincoln. My Uncle had 2 grand daughters by the time they where 12 they could shoot moving targets better than almost any Army guy I knew. Their is a difference between shooting at targets and being an expert, shooting at moving targets and shooting at live animals, shooting at people, shooting at people who are shooting back at you and being a sharp shooter in a war. Each one is a different skill that you have to master. I was am expert shot in the prone position with pop up or stationary targets in the Army. I could also hit just about any target some one threw up into the air next to me as my Air Force Flight Commander could attest to until he threw the clay pigeon at my feet! Now I never was in a fire fight like my father in Vietnam, Thank God (As a Nurse, I wanted to save Lives). I did do a little rabbit hunting and bird shooting. So I know I can hit a live animal when needed. Yet I don't know if I could hit a person yet! So a Marine expert I am sure would not even question this last answer I have. Most Army experts would not. How many Air Force experts in weapons have actually killed people shooting at them? I wonder what the percentage is? I really don't think it matters the fine lines between these issues but if people are competitive they can discus which is harder to do and so fourth but as for me I was an Army qualified Expert on the M-16. The M-4 the Air Force I hit every shot on target except i missed 6 of 9 on burst. I should have failed and redone the course per AF regulations but the instructors said I passed because they had never seen anyone shoot that good outside SF AFC in the Air Force so far.
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Capt Jason S.
When I was in the 82nd we also qualified at night fire and NBC fire. We did neither in the Air Force to get expert. I was also taught how to lay down suppressive fire and cross fire. In the Air Force none of these tactics where even mentioned. We also had exercise with laser tag weapons to practice shooting live targets and to differentiate friendly from enemy targets again my Air Force training had none of this included in it.
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Capt Jason S.
So when comparing the training I had with the Army in the 82nd with service members who had missions with the rangers and special forces who now just wanted to be in a less intense unit in the 82nd Airborne. I would say my experience of being mentored by prior special forces and ranger trained and experienced personnel went far above and beyond anything the Air Force taught me. My father who was a Marine had taught me as a teenager just as much if not more about rifles as the Air Force class did before I deployed. As a medical personnel in the Army and Air Force, I feel the Army did a much better job in preparing for deployment than the Air Force did when I was in. Of course in the Army, I rarely did my medical skills as compared to when I was in the Air Force. Yet, I was given a lot more skill sets in the Army and we constantly trained on all of them.
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TSgt James Carson
Our government representatives are doing all they can to remove the 2nd amendment. Once it's gone many people will die for lack of weapon training. Ask a British soldier or any others who never were around a fire arm, them required to use one. not enough time to properly train a person to hit a target. Look at Vietnam ammo records. 3300 rounds used on average per kill. People who trained with weapons as civilians usually had a better chance of staying alive.
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I just recently finished doing a firing course with Navy MPs around 120 to be exact. They could not hit the broadside of the barn. It took most of them around 10 mags worth of ammo to zero their targets. Even when we went to the qualifing range they still couldn't hit anything. The Army ended up almost running completely out of ammo on the range.
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When did that requirement get dropped for Air Force personnel? We had to qualify out of Basic or we didn't leave Basic. Then we had to qualify every year and before every deployment overseas. I was in the last flight to qualify on the M-1 Carbine out of Basic. The silly thing actually rattled if you had the temerity to shake it!
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TSgt James Carson
Sorry , Politicians and parents are failing our country. I was at Lackland AFB three years ago for a basic training graduation. I was amazed how the training has whimped out. I asked drill instructors and was told parents and politics killed much military training as we knew it. That's why our military looks so whimpy and sissie fied today. We no longer require backbone in the ranks.
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As a flying buff crew chief I was m-16 and m-9 and 38 qualified. I thought of it as a good thing. However, I truly don't believe I would trust some people with a weapon of any sort, including a butter knife! I believe it was a Japanese officer who stated something to the effect of if they were to invade the Continental 48 they would be fighting a war they could not win, because if the fact of at that point the civilian population would blow them to hell.
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SrA Michael Dorwaldt
TSgt James Carson - they want to take away our rights so we can be controlled. The more rights they take the less choices we have, and some would be led down a road like a dog in a leash
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Depending on unit & base for active,reserve, and guard this is no longer the truth , as of Nov 2015 the Air force is starting to crack down and get more stricter on weapons qualifications especially if the unit happens to be a deploy able unit . The Air-guard unit I was with had given individuals three chances at weapons qualifications, and If you fail to qualify a third try around your career was at stake or on the chopping block depending AFSC. How do I know this? because it happen to me. I can't speak for all units, but weapons qualifications is starting to become just as important as PT fitness qualifications and its being added as a way for reduction in force to weed certain individuals who may not be a good fit within the Air force culture.
My suggestion is to anyone who failed weapons qualifications the first time, I would suggest going to a private range for practice while getting private instructions under a qualified instructor depending on the area of residence
My suggestion is to anyone who failed weapons qualifications the first time, I would suggest going to a private range for practice while getting private instructions under a qualified instructor depending on the area of residence
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SrA (Join to see)
It's the case depending on your unit. Each unit is slightly different or maybe I was just red flagged. I'm going by own experience which are the facts for my particular situation. I just remember one day one my supervisors reminding about weapons qualification and you failed to qualify they couldn't use you which is the truth and one of the reasons why I was honorable discharged
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This is no longer the truth as Nov 2015 The Air force is starting to crack down and get more stricter on weapons qualifications depending on unit and command. The Air-guard unit I was with had given individuals three chances at weapons qualifications and If you fail to qualify a third try around your career was at stake or on the chopping block depending AFSC. How do I know this because it happen to me. I can't speak for all units, but weapons qualifications is starting to become just as important as PT fitness qualifications and its being added as a way for reduction in force to weed certain individuals who may not be a good fit within the Air force culture.
My suggestion is to anyone who failed weapons qualifications the first time, I would suggest going to a private range for practice while getting private instructions under a qualified instructor depending on the area of residence
My suggestion is to anyone who failed weapons qualifications the first time, I would suggest going to a private range for practice while getting private instructions under a qualified instructor depending on the area of residence
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CPT Ray Doeksen
It is sad if servicemembers need to go to outside sources for basic marksmanship training, ranges and resources ... just as they shouldn't need to have a private gym membership to stay in shape.
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MSgt Joe Marcom
True, but it's also true that the military as a whole is undermanned and overworked. It isn't possible to get all of your training (including some B.S. stuff), , keep your medical file current and still get your regular job done. IMO, manpower is the major issue.
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There's more to it then just packing heat. You need training, lots of it. A bunch of Airmen trying to do their daily tasks while humping a rifle, or even packing an M-9 on the hip would be very problematic. I had advocated that the Air Force should keep it's people better trained in the use of firearms with each duty section maintaining an armory. The problem here is funding. To do this, each section will have to have a secure locker with an individual able to issue out weapons. Then there's the requisite loading barrels and arm/disarm procedures. Then consider all these Airmen requiring training in small unit tactics, communication, movement, shoot-don't shoot, etc., with training drills. These are perishable skills. I prefer an avionics technician to concentrate on fixing airplanes.
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CPT Ray Doeksen
If they don't need to be fighters, and they aren't suitable to be deployed to an FOB, then make it a DOD civilian job. Otherwise, skip the drill and ceremonies and shoe polishing and brasso, and teach them to shoot something.
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MSgt Darren VanDerwilt
Look. I believe that all members of the military should be well versed in the use of arms. Read about the German assault on Crete, had the British airmen been armed and trained, the Germans may not have been successful. Also, the linear concept of warfare, front lines versus rear area, died when airpower was introduced. The modern battle-space is not limited by distance or platform used. A computer virus can have far greater strategic impact, making a laptop or smartphone just as much a "weapon" as an M-4 carbine or B-2 bomber. Except in rare instances, a jack-of-all trades is a master of none. Not everyone can be a fighter pilot, infantryman, aircraft mechanic, etc. Reality does not reflect gameplay in "Call of Duty" or the "Battlefield" series of games. As it is, the Air Force is sacrificing man power for shiny weapons system program. The current fleet is suffering reduced mission capability rates as a result. The Air Force has far bigger fish to fry at the moment.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
SSgt (Join to see) - In the AF those "Arms' have wings and can kill everything from an individual to a nation.
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