Posted on May 28, 2015
SSgt Security Forces
368K
4.45K
1.94K
565
565
0
Carbine backwards mag
I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited 9 y ago
Avatar feed
Responses: 914
SMSgt Thor Merich
502
501
1
The Air Force was never intended to be a ground fighting unit. Back in the day, AF bases were protected by Army units for that very same reason. The ground fighting component of the AF is SF. Among our many duties, being the infantry of the AF is one of them. I started my military career in the Army and I will tell you that the AF as a whole was never designed to operate like the Army or Marines. The culture is completely different, and for good reason. The AF could not operate under the same culture as the Army or Marines. In SF, weapons are a tool for us. For the majority of the AF, a weapon is not a tool that they use in their day to day duties. ANd frankly, it should not be. I used to be CATM, and I can tell you that keeping an M-4 away from most AF members is a good thing.
(502)
Comment
(1)
SrA Jerry Davey
SrA Jerry Davey
>1 y
CPT (Join to see) - CPT I agree with you. I was in the AF in 1972-1976. We are talking about basic training not tech school. I often thought what if a base was attacked. Throw a bed at the enemies. We had more training making a bed than weapons. I was a machinist in the AF we kept the aircraft safe and ready for the troops that need support. As I see it if we can't defend ourselves how are the troops going to get their well needed support?
(1)
Reply
(0)
SrA Jerry Davey
(1)
Reply
(0)
TSgt William Cantrel
TSgt William Cantrel
>1 y
SSgt Gregg Coldsnow - I was in from 1971 to 1991 and I qualified every year and when I was in charge of a shop or Prime Beef I made sure everyone was qualified.
(1)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow
MSgt Mike (Lobo VNV Original) Morrow
>1 y
I was in from 1963 until 1983 as an Avionics Technician and qualified every year. I spent the first ten years in Southeast Asia and only was issued an M16 once in Thailand. I did carry my own 1911 for every deployment had to get ammo from the Marines as needed.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
PO1 John Miller
380
380
0
Real firefight
Completely in jest. I have seen people in all branches who should be permanently downloaded (having their weapons privileges revoked).
(380)
Comment
(0)
PO2 John Harker
PO2 John Harker
2 y
PO1 John Miller That's where we need you. I've got your six.
(2)
Reply
(0)
TSgt Infantryman
TSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
Sgt Neil Foster - I'll bet 4 to donuts he was a democrat
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Neil Foster
(0)
Reply
(0)
CPL Miguel Velez
CPL Miguel Velez
7 mo
That’s funny! Thanks for making my morning funnier.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Col Joseph Lenertz
377
377
0
Everyone sees things through their own experiences. If I were an AF Security Forces officer, I might share your opinion. As a pilot, I was required to qualify annually on my assigned personal weapon, the M-9, because aircrew members deploy more than other AF personnel. So far that makes sense. So why not go to the much bigger effort and expense of making us like the Army or Marine Corps and force every Airman to qualify annually? To put it as simply as possible, because there is a fixed amount of time and money, and there isn't an Air Force base in Afghanistan or Iraq or anywhere else we fight. When deployed, we generally either to deploy to large Airbases in-country with our Army, Navy, and Marine brethren (who are responsible to protect the base) or out-of-country where the threat is much lower (SA, Qatar, Bahrain, etc). I know there are exceptions, especially for our Special Forces community...but then they are qualified on their personal weapons, aren't they? In order to be the best at Our Job as Airmen, we spend our time and money on training aircrew, mechanics, and all the other support functions necessary to keep airpower supporting the Joint Force Commander. If we spent lots of time and money to be like the Army and the Marines, we would be better infantrymen but worse airmen.
(377)
Comment
(0)
SPC Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic
SPC (Join to see)
>1 y
1stSgt Nelson Kerr - Well kid who did u brown nose to get to 1st Sgt??? I have 4 cr from 6 degrees. WHITE Skeleton were found in Washington state in a river, There was at least one found out east and TWO white mummies found in Alaska. So I do not even think u looked. Yeah I think u are the kind to lie and that u did in the military.

And they found one Nazi sub in one of the Great lakes. I found that a few years back and then there is one off of the upper east coast.
WISH I would have told the recruiter Yes rather than no on what I was offered with my dad there that had been an award winning recruiter. And I am pretty sure My ASVAB was way better than Urs kid and IIF u have any college I KNOW my scores for the college entrance test ARE way better than anything u even dreamed of.

Now that I have given u some direction go out and really do what u said u did. U Run into ur loser type.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Neil Foster
Sgt Neil Foster
>1 y
SPC (Join to see) - "Ur ASVAB scores" were high... REALLY? You obviously don't know how to write, or use correct punctuation.

You are great at reciting 'war stories' but don't have a CLUE about researching facts. TRUE, a German U-Boat, UC-97 was found in the Great Lakes... but that is only HALF the story. The boat was taken by the US Navy after WWI, and used as a publicity tool. It was later TOWED into the middle of Lake Michigan and sunk for target practice by the USS Wilmette.
So, son, I suggest you wipe your nose, and LEARN HOW TO WRITE AND RESEARCH, lest you continue to look like a fool
(0)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Neil Foster
Sgt Neil Foster
>1 y
1stSgt Nelson Kerr
Actually, the US Navy acquired a U-Boat (UC-97) and used it for publicity. They later towed it into Lake Michigan and sunk it during target practice!
https://www.businessinsider.com/german-uboat-at-the-bottom-of-lake-michigan-2021-8
(0)
Reply
(0)
SPC Wheeled Vehicle Mechanic
SPC (Join to see)
>1 y
Sgt Neil Foster - Yes my ASVAB was very High only found two people so far with higher scores and they were only a couple points higher and could not go much if any higher. OH and KID I did better than 89% of people on my college entrance exams.
Which puts ur snotty nose way behind me. And with my dad there who had been an award winning recruiter when he was in when he and the guy that signed me up saw my scores the very 1st words out of my recruiters mouth, and this is word for word exact. If they offered u West Point would u take it. And I said NO.
And kid My dad was a better air plane mech. than u were at any job u did. Never had a failure on any plane he and the crew he worked with worked on and everyone of them got job offers from Boeing.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Avatar feed
Why don't all members of the Air Force have to be fully qualified to be a rifleman in case of hostile events?
MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
94
94
0
As an Intel Guy, I was told I would never have the need to be armed. Intel traditionally stays so far behind the lines, you'd never know we even existed.

And that lasted for about the first three years of my career.

Operation Restore Hope saw my first need to be armed and know how to use it effectively. Then the AF got the bright idea of getting rid of 60% of the Security Forces billets and I found myself being trained as a READY and standing on a gate for 12 hours at a time. Then came the multiple OEF/OIF deployments. Let's not get into the times I actually had to USE that weapon to defend myself and fellow service members close by.

"You'll never need that training...." is the worst form of bad planning. With Today's smaller, more mobile force, I think the days of staying all comfy and warm on a heavily defended base somewhere in the Dallas Back 40 are going to become the exception rather than the norm.

The Army and Marines are drawing down forces as well. Relying on troops who may not be there in the future does no one any good when the time comes.
(94)
Comment
(0)
Col Joseph Lenertz
Col Joseph Lenertz
>1 y
MSgt Kerry Lundy - Kudos to you, MSgt. But you have not made the case for ALL USAF members to be FULLY qualified as riflemen. That is an expense of time and money that would reduce our skills as airmen. There are always exceptions.
(2)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Kerry Lundy
MSgt Kerry Lundy
>1 y
Col Joseph Lenertz - I was not trained on the additional weapons until I was on my second tour in Vietnam. Not all USAF members at that time were trained on anything but the basic weapon (M16). We had a small sector of the airfield that was our responsibility including perimeter guard (towers) as well as our primary duties. I am not advocating for all USAF members to be trained on all the weapons like I was unless they find themselves in a situation like I was in. We had no AF security forces on the base.
(1)
Reply
(0)
Sgt Ron Harris
Sgt Ron Harris
>1 y
I wrote this a while ago but I guess it got lost. I was in SAC before going to Nam in 68. I had to qualify annually. I was 97th FMS, AGE. Qualified with M1 Garand. I qualified expert 4 times but was never awarded the medal. 47years after I got out and about 3 mo. after being awarded 100% Permanent Service Connected Disability, I received a package containing 2 VN Service Medals (1 was combat ribbon), Good Conduct, and Expert Marksman....go figure. I was promised 2 different AF Commendations but never received them.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SMSgt Sheila Berg
SMSgt Sheila Berg
>1 y
Col Joseph Lenertz - This must mean the Army needs help! I'll be there when I finish my tank training! NOT!!!
(1)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
MSgt Security Business Analyst
82
82
0
The purpose behind this turn in our training can be explained in two ways.
1st. The Air Force is reactive in Nature. Our Higher Ups prefer to spend money on a worthless Uniform or its improved uniform (but not provide it to all of those in the Service) and placing us in front of computers to train instead of getting our Airmen outside and in real classrooms.
2nd. Budget. The budget drives everything. It costs more to train, retrain, and throw out failures vs allowing them to perform their jobs on a regular basis.

As a Combat Arms Instructor (CATM Troop, SAMTU Descendant), I think not making every Airman a rifleman is a huge disservice and it degrades our true readiness. Readiness should be measured by our ability to perform our primary jobs, secondary duties, and our ability to function on the battlefield. Functioning on the battlefield would include getting off our Asses and getting out in the “Field” for training. The “Field” is not a 4 Star Hotel. It is sleeping in whatever piece of sh!t tent your unit has provided for you.

I am glad I was in Security Forces and I have knowledge in weapons systems. I am glad I was able to instill some of my knowledge onto my Airmen prior to retiring.
(82)
Comment
(0)
MSgt Kerry Lundy
MSgt Kerry Lundy
>1 y
I agree with you. Every Airman,NCO and Officer needs to be trained in weapons and Air Base Ground defense. The Security Forces Squadrons are not large enough to provide the defense against an all out ground assault on the base. You will not have time to teach in the middle of an assault! Been there and done that in Vietnam as a vehicle mechanic and thankful for the training I received from our base Security Police (Forces)!
(1)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Kevin George
MSgt Kevin George
2 y
MSgt (Join to see) I think all services should be trained the same on "everything military" so there is redundancy. As a USAFer I should be trained in launching aircraft from a carrier and how to repel out of helicopters whether i need it or not. I need tank maintenance training whether I ever ride on a tank or not. In sure our civilian-led military seniors will provide all the money we need for this redundant training.
(1)
Reply
(0)
CPL Tanya Otey
CPL Tanya Otey
>1 y
I agree 1000 percent.
(0)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Anne Slabinski
MSgt Anne Slabinski
>1 y
Back during DS (1990) the Transporters I deployed with were not issued weapons when we deployed to SA. MRW folks were! I didn't think that made a lot of sense either.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
Cpl Jeff N.
64
64
0
Edited >1 y ago
It's all fun and games until an airfield gets overun. No one can find a weapon , load one, shoot one or hit anything if they did.

Point of order though. Shooting a rifle or qualifying with it does not make you a rifleman. Knowing fire team and squad tactics, close combat, bayonet, manuever etc etc etc are some of the other skills of a rifleman. Being physically fit enough to carry on through a firefight would be nice too.

The air force is pretty far gone on this skill. My Dad, who was career air force (retired in late 70'). Was proficient with a rifle. Not to the standards of the Marine Corps but he could shoot, load, clear etc a weapon.
(64)
Comment
(0)
CSM Charles Hayden
CSM Charles Hayden
3 y
TSgt (Join to see) W/o annual re-training and qualification?
(1)
Reply
(0)
CPO Dale Dietzman
CPO Dale Dietzman
3 y
I DID enter a comment, and I don't know where it went. Not repeating it.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SMSgt Sheila Berg
SMSgt Sheila Berg
>1 y
CSM Charles Hayden - The Military needs to stop focusing on feelings, gender, identity and start training again.
(1)
Reply
(0)
CSM Charles Hayden
CSM Charles Hayden
>1 y
SMSgt Sheila Berg Check my BPED. I do not need to change as I do not have to, nor have I adopted most changes to the military! ‘Nuf said, I would be chastised.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
CPT Bruce Beattie
57
57
0
When I was in Vietnam, I belonged to a six man team assigned to a Vietnamese District. We were in 4 Corps and no American units operated in our Province. We did have some Navy helicopter gunships for air support. The closest Americans were another small group like ours that was about 20 kilometers away. We were sent an Air Force medic to help the Vietnamese run clinics for the people. That medic wanted to be a full part of our team. He eventually came out on combat patrols with us. A typical patrol was two Americans and 12 to 20 Vietnamese. We came under unfriendly fire on a routine basis. He met the requirements for a Combat Infantryman's Badge except for the fact that he was a medic. Since he fortunately had not had to treat any of us for wounds we put him in for that CIB. A few weeks later, we received a letter from HQ MACV denying that request and suggesting that we put him in for the Combat Medic Badge. We borrowed a typewriter from the Vietnamese again and made that request. A few weeks later we received a response from HQ 7th Air Force. Not only did they deny the award but made an only slightly veiled threat that if we placed him in a role where a firefight was likely, they would consider contacting my chain of command and requesting that I be brought up on charges. I'm sure he is very proud of the CIB given to him by that little team even though he couldn't wear it on his uniform! He wasn't very proficient with his M16 when he first arrived but certainly was before he left. Every member of the military should be capable of using a standard battle rifle and a pistol to defend themselves.
(57)
Comment
(0)
LTC Robert Gray
LTC Robert Gray
>1 y
LtCol George Carlson - Reminds me of a story told to me by SSG Buck Lawhorn. (one of my tactics instructors) Buck was on a firebase when MAC-V Col arrived on an inspection tour. He saw the men had magazines in their weapons. He immediately ordered they remove the Mags. Was screaming at the FB commander for about 15 minutes when the base came under attack.

Of course the Col. jumped in his chopper and ran to safety. Buck screamed as he ran to the bird. "Can we put our Magazines in now." He also wondered if the Col. got a medal because of all the bullet holes in his chopper. They where 5.56mm in diameter.
(4)
Reply
(0)
SPC Douglas Thompson
SPC Douglas Thompson
>1 y
Even as an Army medic, I can just about guarantee that the unofficial CIB he was given meant more to him than an official one from people he had never met would.
(6)
Reply
(0)
Sgt John Milner
Sgt John Milner
>1 y
SPC Douglas Thompson I would have and I think everyone on here feels the same
(2)
Reply
(0)
TSgt Ken Vandevoort
TSgt Ken Vandevoort
>1 y
I worked in a stateside MARS station with another ground radio operator and fellow ham radio operator. Both of us got orders and I went to Turkey and he went to Vietnam. He was assigned to the South Koreans as a radio operator and he carried weapons. He came back with a Purple Heart and the Air Force Cross. He received the latter by using his weapons. He was also decorated by the South Korean government.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SSG Mark Ives
46
46
0
I'll venture a guess, and I'm getting out on a limb here, it stems from when the Air Force became a separate branch from the Army. The Air Force tended to distance themselves from their roots. I've known some AF FAC's and SP's who have been very proficient with weapons. Personally I feel, if you wear a uniform, I think you should know how to handle a weapon, regardless of branch.
(46)
Comment
(0)
TSgt David L.
TSgt David L.
>1 y
Not true, Private. There are plenty of trained AF folks out there.
(4)
Reply
(0)
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
SMSgt Lawrence McCarter
4 y
PFC Bradley Campbell - Actually Air Force Red Horse units (construction for bases where there is none in hostile zones) are all weapons qualified, so are combat aircrews, Missile Combat Crews, Para-Rescue, Combat controllers, Special Operations troops. These are some examples of other Air Force people that are qualified with many types of firearms. In some other job areas that has been neglected and it shouldn't have been. In my estimate everyone in uniform should at least have basic weapons qualification on a regular basis at least on the M4, M16 and M9 just 1LT Nick Kidwell pointed out on His posting here.
(4)
Reply
(0)
MSgt 2 Jcs Alpha Troop Section Chief
MSgt (Join to see)
3 y
MSgt Gary Enos - Ft Hood was not filled with well armed Soldiers. It was filled with disarmed Soldiers that were easy targets for a sick man. The irony of that is not lost on some of us.
(1)
Reply
(0)
SSgt Emergency Management
SSgt (Join to see)
2 y
Don't forget the nearby CAV unit that emptied out the barracks, issued weapons and ammo, then responded en-mass on foot to respond to the shooting.
(0)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
SFC Mark Bailey
40
40
0
This is the basic firearm of the US Military when deployed.
In an Assymetrical Warfare battle (meaning you can be attacked at anytime by anybody anywhere in the Battle Area)...everyone needs to be trained on this very simple firearm.

For a service to systematically believe that they dont need to do this is actually beyond imagination...but I can testify to this fact with over six deployed years of watching USAF members tell me this...

When the only person guarding the gates is a USAF person doing something he was not trained for....one has to really wonder about the safety and security of everyone else behind the wire.
(40)
Comment
(0)
1LT Nick Kidwell
1LT Nick Kidwell
9 y
My point exactly.
(8)
Reply
(0)
MSgt Rob Miller
MSgt Rob Miller
9 y
Which is why the Air Force, after 2004, has spent an astronomical amount of $$$ to train airman for combat. We were seriously lacking and yet being sent to places in Iraq and Afghanistan where small arms combat was occurring DAILY.
(9)
Reply
(0)
CW2 Louis Melendez
CW2 Louis Melendez
>1 y
I agree with you SFC Mark Bailey. Unfortunately, a lot Airmen MSgt Rob Miller don't understand the importance of knowing how to operate a gun (M4, M9, etc). You are the first one that I've seen so far that agrees that there is a need.
(9)
Reply
(0)
TSgt Jennifer Disch
TSgt Jennifer Disch
>1 y
But we are "fit-to-fight", right? Ha ha.
(3)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small
1LT Nick Kidwell
36
36
0
Edited 3 y ago
I think that all members of the uniformed services should be qualified on the M4/M16 platform as well as the M9.
(36)
Comment
(0)
CPO Ed Hoover
CPO Ed Hoover
>1 y
Right on 1Lt Nick. Go to any Navy base now, unless you are stationed aboard a ship on that pier, you can't get on the pier. Guards are armed with, pistols, shotguns, and/Or M4s. Was at an air show at NAS Oceana, in Sept '17. Checked bags before entering the show area. Navy MAs, (Master at arms) were there armed with various weapons. Inside the air show area, there were numerous other teams, patrolling. Gotta protect those $$$ ships and planes.
(1)
Reply
(0)
CPO Ed Hoover
CPO Ed Hoover
>1 y
1Lt. Shore Patrol, is used in and around areas, to "look after" Navy and other military personnel. Most only carry a nitestick and maybe handcuffs. Main gates are usually controlled by Master at arms personnel, the Navy police force. Entrance to piers and the quarterdeck of ships are by controlled by those ships present, personnel.
(1)
Reply
(0)
CPO Ed Hoover
CPO Ed Hoover
>1 y
Look at pictures of current navy surface combatants. In most instances you will see .50 cals forward and aft port and starboard. I've watched carriers coming into Norfolk, armed sentries on the flight deck and sponson. Seems to be a lot of fam firing now too, by all personnel. Yeah there are alot of Navy people that should not be armed on a daily basis, but it doesn't hurt anyone to be familiar with weapons, and be able to take them up in a defense situation.
(3)
Reply
(0)
CPO Ed Hoover
CPO Ed Hoover
>1 y
What did Gen George Patton say? You don't die for your country, make the other SOB, die for his country.
(3)
Reply
(0)
Avatar small

Join nearly 2 million former and current members of the US military, just like you.

close