Posted on May 28, 2015
SSgt Security Forces
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Carbine backwards mag
I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited >1 y ago
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SrA Ryan White
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I believe that all AFSC's should be required to qualify every 6 months at a minimum. Why not have as many guns in the fight as possible. The more familiar with the weapon, the less likely to experience friendly fire.
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Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
Maj Kevin "Mac" McLaughlin
10 y
How are you going to pay for this? I love going out to the range as much as the next guy, but we still have a core job to do. Even with the standards we have now, the range on most Air Force bases seems to be booked solid, regardless of the fact you are scheduled to deploy within weeks.
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SSgt Network Engineer
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Edited >1 y ago
I think it is critical that everyone in the armed forces be ready to bear arms. It is quintessential that every service member to be proficient with a rifle especially with today's high OPSTEMPO.

Back around 2004/2005...when I was in still in . The Air Force and the Navy they had the Individual Augmentee Program which took Airmen and Sailors and attached them to Army units. These personnel were trained as soldiers and expected to bear arms if needed. Many of these Airmen or Sailors drove convoys, provided medical support or worked to defend FOB's (etc)

It is best to be prepared for a fight if needed.. than to be completely unprepared in the middle of a combat zone. Deploying to Iraq to drive convoys and having limited soldier skills or training gets people killed.

A prime example of this was seen in 2003 when Jessica Lynch's unit was ambushed in Iraq. Those soldiers in her unit were completely unprepared to deal with hostile forces. They didn't have the proper training to even deal with such hostilities. I realize every member of the armed forces isn't an infantryman but they do need to be able to fire an M16 and render medical aid to their buddies if needed.

Another example would include the Tet Offensive during the Vietnam War. Essentially every military base/camp was attacked by the enemy. American forces were initially caught off guard by the attack. I'm sure at the time many of soldiers during the attack were too busy trying to defend themselves to worry about the Air Force.

Today the armed forces is shrinking to post WWII levels with expanding missions worldwide. With that said... everyone in serving in uniform today needs the right skills to be able to survive in a combat zone.
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SFC Mark Bailey
SFC Mark Bailey
10 y
Wee spoken...
Too many people don't fully realize how different today's modern battlefield is
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TSgt Chip Dollason
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Edited >1 y ago
OK Garrett, Heres the deal. First I agree with you 100%. I always have and I always will when it comes to qualifications. I was core CATM from the moment I joined the AF in 1988 until they made me become a 3PO in 1998. I still worked CATM until 2001 when I had to deploy as a flight chief in support of "Operation Southern Watch". The #1 reason why AF personnel aren't trained is money. 70% of the AF personnel would never in their lives have to handle a weapon for their jobs unless they were going down range. There are people in the AF that retire having not fired since they were in boot camp. So how much does it cost to train these 70% of AF personnel that will never handle a weapon? It would probably take a big chunk out of the national debt. It is more cost effective to train them prior to them going down range, not to mention they are more apt to listen if their life depends on it. Figure out how busy your range is and how busy the CATM folks are then triple their training load with people who will never handle a weapon.
Now consider the fact that many CATM instructors now deploy on a constant basis and have to be back filled with cops who most of the time think they know everything because they can personally shoot but can't figure out why you can't shoot. So you have more failures, more refires more people who for whatever reason cannot qualify and gets them put out because they can't qualify and how much did the AF spend to train that person for the past 10 years and now all of a sudden they are put out because of weapons qualifications. Do you see the $$$$$ adding up? Watered down training of people who already can't shoot spells disaster. People will tell you whatever their opinion is but the God's honest truth is, its about $$$$$. Wrong as that may be, it is what it is and the truth will set you free!
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SSgt Security Forces
SSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
Awesome post... I leave for catm actually next month can't wait!
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TSgt Chip Dollason
TSgt Chip Dollason
>1 y
SSgt Christ, I wish you the best. Its the best job in the AF. Forget all the metro sexual pilots or the ego busting CE troops. In CATM you actually make a difference. You will never find a more gratifying time than when a airman (from AMN to Col) come to you and tell you its the first time they shot expert or its the first time that they actually had confidence in themselves because of your instruction. But don't get prideful. There will be days when no matter what you do, they just can't seem to make it. That's when you have to swallow your pride and get help from another instructor. One instructor might see something that you don't and vice versa. CATM school is a lot of fun and if its like it used to be, you will have to give a 5 minute lecture on a subject of your choosing, not related to guns. Its about getting you used to being in front of group talking about a subject that you are really familiar with. I remember in 1988 I chose white tail deer hunting. Have a blast and if you get a chance, try to get an assignment in Charleston , SC you won't be disappointed. Best of luck to you bud.
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SrA Donald Bacha
SrA Donald Bacha
>1 y
true, the training that it takes to qualify EVERYONE in the service or even the base takes a lot of time and money. not to mention the Forecasting of ammo for the year or the amount of instructors it takes. our range only has 21 points so we can technically only teach 21 shooters at a time. but recently there has been a push for deployments where we have had to fire 40+ people at a time which was very nerve-racking and time consuming. considering every shooter need at least 196 round for rifle times that by the amount of shooters. Our Lesson Plans also state that the classes for M4 are anywhere between 9-11 hours with firing. so all that combined is why but as CATM we try to do our best to facilitate everyone.
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TSgt Greg Echols
TSgt Greg Echols
>1 y
The cost of training cost of this is a drop in the bucket compared to other waste that is going on. I have been out for a while but I remember having to go to some pretty useless training (politically correct stuff, paperwork, regulations, etc...) that could be cut from the budget. The cost of operating non- security forces squadrons has got to be multiple times more expensive than the cost of some M4's, ammo, and other grunt stuff. They should make 10% of the people in other squadrons rotate through the SF squadron for something like 6 months then take that training back to their units to share what they learned. They should also be deployed with the SF squadron as needed. We should all be riflemen because if we ever do get into a real war, all the expensive war machines like F35s will be crewed up and gone and we will be back to bayonets and infantry tactics. You can make an avionics airman into an infantryman but you cannot make an avionics guy out of an infantryman.

How would you like to be an F16 mechanic in Osan AB when 1 million DPRK troops roll south to capture your base..? What will you do, throw wrenches and technical orders at them?
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MSgt Rob Miller
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I can out shoot most everyone I know Marine, Navy, Army or Air Force in M4 M16 M9 or any other damn thing. But I grew up shooting so... Not bragging, just stating a fact.
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SSG John Lalli
SSG John Lalli
6 y
Not this Army grunt...I grew up shooting. And continue to
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SSgt Donnavon Smith
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When the time came, my job would be to get the planes off the base (or break them badly), nothing more. I fired my 80 rounds a year in "training" but I can tell you. if the baddies get past the Army/Marines and the SFs, there is not much that a few additional M-16s is going to fix.
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TSgt Ncoic Comm Focal Point
TSgt (Join to see)
10 y
Fire from the plane ramp...cause we're gettin' the hell outta there at that point.
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Capt Flight Nurse
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I completely agree!!! That being said, I was an infantry Marine first.
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MAJ Forscom Strategy Team
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When I was stationed at MacDill AFB, we had to have a civilian safety guy from our unit "approve" the standard of our training and act as the range safety officer. The guy was knowledgeable and definitely taught us something but it was still a pain and a little demoralizing from an Army perspective.

The macro reason is that the Air Force seems to place a much higher value on technical expertise in an Airman's skill set than overall combat skills. It makes sense, that's why the Air Force pads all its overseas bases with Army guys around the flight line, right?
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TSgt Chip Dollason
TSgt Chip Dollason
>1 y
NEGATIVE! The AF Security Forces field is always in critical need of more cops and soldiers are a dime a dozen. As a SF I deployed to Camp AJ in Kuwait to support the Army as a Armorer/Truck commander with the 70th MTD doing convoys in Iraq. I think the Army and the AF work a lot together because one day soon, you will see the rebirth of the Army Air Corp again.
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LCDR Vice President
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It always cracks me up when people refer to the Mark 4 like it is not an M-16. But in any case the navy qualifies everyone on the Beretta 9mil (M9) and the M-16. Some are further qualified on the M-60 and 50 Cal, to a lessor extent the M-40 Grenade Launcher and various other assundries. My personal favorite is the GAU-19 it makes a distinctive sound when fired at you. I put one of those on everything I could find, there are two of them mounted on the SWIFT HSVX-2. Not sure they made it to the production ships though.
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TSgt Chip Dollason
TSgt Chip Dollason
>1 y
The GAU is nothing but a short barreled 5.56 M16 series weapons. They were replaced with the M-4's because they would still fire on full auto instead of the 3 rd burst.
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CPO David Sharp
CPO David Sharp
9 y
M-4 are designed for MRAPs and other tactical vehicles. They are a 5.56 round but the stock is expandable. The lower receiver is replaceable as the A-1 A-2 were mergered for the Seabees for the automatic rifleman in the fireteam.
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SSG Paul Setterholm
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I was on the initial response team (formally known as "alert reactionary force" but governor janklow thought that was too militant) the irt was comprised of 80 members (40 from army/40 from Air Force) we were activated to guard Mount Rushmore from suspected terror attack during the 4th of July week. Airmen did not know what battle site zero is. They could not properly load a magazine.(I personally show an e-9 how to load a magazine!) and they whined constantly about the barracks! Army guys had 1 squad to a room. All 40 guys shared 1 latrine. Eventually airman got 2 guys to a room and 1squad to a latrine.
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LTC Bink Romanick
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MSgt Security Business Analyst
MSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
Hey, Shit happens. If it was my Airmen guarding Mt. Rushmore you would have had a hole ton of issues on your hands. I taught Battle Sight Zero and knowing your "Dope." I cannot help it if the general population in the AF does not retain what they are taught. I can tell you that it is part of the requirement for them to be armed. Yes, we do show them how to load weapons too.

I can tell you about a time I helped open a Connex Box with US Army Infantry MK-19's and M2's in it. Those weapns were bbeyond repair with the amount of rust in them. I have been on my Range with Active Duty Army that has not basic weapons handling skills. Nor did they understand the concept of "Level and Down Range." It takes all kinds to make the world go round.

My Airmen get to Qualify every three years on a MURF or REX Range on an Army Installation. They also qualify on the MPMG Range when qualifying on the M249 and M240B.
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Cpl Andrew Kotcher
Cpl Andrew Kotcher
6 y
as a aviation electrician in the marine corps my butt had to be on range every year to qualify with my rifle, and whoa to those that cant qualify.i shot the same as i did in boot camp 226 rifle expert year in year out [250 point system kd course]
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SP5 James Elmore
SP5 James Elmore
>1 y
I would never hand a weapon over to someone who hadn't qualified on the range. AF E-9 or not...more danger to him/herself and friendlies than useful.
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SP5 Gary Perkins
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Example: Enemies could parachute
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