Posted on May 28, 2015
SSgt Security Forces
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Carbine backwards mag
I have noticed through the years of being in the Air Force (Security Forces member here) that most people in the Air Force are clueless when it comes to M-4/M-16/M-9. This is outrageous! What are they supposed to do if the enemy comes knocking on our door step and everyone needs to fight. I have taught classes on the M-4 with communication airmen and have seen them completely mess up clearing out the weapon, loading it (magazine upside down or rounds the wrong way), and just completely incapable of achieving a zero on target after four rounds of firing. I am a big fan of how the Army and Marines teach that your are always a rifleman first. It almost seems like some of the Airmen don't expect to carry a weapon (ummmm why did you join the military in the first place)? I wish the Air Force would pick up on this to make us a more combat ready force. But, enough of me what are your thoughts?
Edited >1 y ago
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Capt Staff Officer
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Personally I believe that every service member should be qualified on a rifle and a pistol. As we have seen since 9/11 service members have been called to do things outside of their primary job. Who would have ever thought that we would have Air Force guys running ground convoys, but we did. This took Air Force guys outside the wire and put them in the line of fire. The environment of the military these days is a joint environment. Each branch has their own specialty but there are some jobs during a time of war that anybody in the DoD should be able to do, including defending the base with standard weaponry (M-4/M-16). At smaller operating locations they rely on everyone in the camp to defend it if they are attacked. This was the case of a recent deployment I had with a special operations unit. We had our own SOF security team that was in charge of our personel and equipment. There was a conventional Air Force Security Forces element there that for the U.S. compound and the conventional Air Force element there, which was about 3 times the size of our unit. If the compound was attacked the conventional Air Force plan was for all of their personel to man additional posts along the compound walls. This would include personel such as cooks who rarely touch a weapon, at least for the Air Force. Our unit had our own contingency plan and weapons for an attack because our unit was designed to self sufficient if need be. If we were attacked I would take a rifle, that I'm not currently qualified on but know how to use, in order to defend myself and my teammates. In my time on Active Duty I have only had the opportunity to qualify on the M-4 once, which wasn't for my deployment. I had to qualify on the M-4 while I worked as an augmentee for the Security Forces on my base. During the qualification there were 2 negligent discharges, both from Security Forces reservist. She was a MSgt (E-7) and had been a cop in both the Navy and Air Force but obviously wasn't fully competent with her primary weapons. During my most recent qualification, which was only on the M-9, there was a MSgt who hadn't fired a weapon since she was at boot camp. By this time in a military career you should be an expert with a weapon. Although I personally feel comfortable with weapons, I don't feel comfortable with the amount of time I get with the weapons that I am expected to use in combat. I think in order to solve this, the DoD will have to make a minimum standard for all service members that the services will have to follow. These joint standards would enable the DoD to use any service member to fill critical billets in a time of war. Regardless of our job in the military, the public views us as war fighters, which we should be trained to be.
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SMSgt Thor Merich
SMSgt Thor Merich
10 y
I don't disagree, but good luck getting the AF Generals to come around to your way of thinking.
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Capt Staff Officer
Capt (Join to see)
10 y
That is why it would have to be a DoD standard. The Air Force Generals wouldn't make this change on their own. I really wish it would happen but unfortunately I'm not sure that it will ever happen or something bad is going to have to happen for this change.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
1stSgt Nelson Kerr
9 y
Capt (Join to see) - Where are you going to find the people to fill in for the people in training and constant recurring training? Do you work in on for the areas that is not desperately short of manpower already?
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TSgt Tim Kline
TSgt Tim Kline
>1 y
many people knew how to shoot before they came in, I did. Country boys shoot all the time...
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MSG Intermediate Care Technician
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The Army doesn't always teach that you are a rifleman first. Yes, we qual every year (as long as ammo is avail), but not everyone in the Army knows how to handle a weapon. Your picture reminds me of a time when I once witnessed (and I still don't know how she did it) a LTC Dietician somehow managed to put a magazine in an M-16 backwards. Not upside down, but backwards. After about 30 mins of tugging and shimmying, I finally got it out. She had it in there real snug.
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LTC Bink Romanick
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A militarization course will train the troops how to get out a swarm of bumblebees. You don't want expert middlemen, you want suppressive fire.. until the Cavalry gets there.

If they were serious about defended you'd have machine guns.
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LTC Bink Romanick
LTC Bink Romanick
>1 y
Damned auto spell check. sorry
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SSgt Ncoic, Admin And Dts
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I agree, I haven't had to zero a weapon in sometime but when I did with my personal weapon it wasn't too bad. If you think some of the comm guys were bad you should have seen some of the Intel guys I was in augmentee training. It was like they were completely scared to handle the M9 and the M4/M16. It was kind of scary to think that one day these troops might be in a position where they could have to return fire to save themselves or have our backs....
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MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P
>1 y
Agreed. Most of the Intel folks I served with hadn't handled a weapon since Basic Training. Even then, most of them had the .22 conversion rifles. Big difference in how a .223/5.56 round acts over a .22! Most of my NASIC coworkers looked at me like I had a third eye every time I mentioned maintaining weapons proficiency given the frequent deployments.
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MSgt J D McKee
MSgt J D McKee
9 y
Whomever sold the USAF on that .22 conversion shit betrayed his service. I was in Security Police with a secondary AFSC in CATM when that happened. The guy who put it in on the suggestion program probably made a shit-load of money, but he betrayed his service.
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MSgt 1 C6 X1 Cdc Writer
MSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
We had .22 units? Ouch. Glad I never got those in training. Definite difference in sound/feel between the two.
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CPT Senior Instructor
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This goes back to another discussion here. The AF are not shooters, generally. They do have some shooters in them nothing on the scale of the Army and MC. It would just be a waste. In most cases there are Army and MC at the bases where AF are. A lot of their deployments aren't even to combat areas. I would recommend that all deploying Airmen going to an active war zone should be trained with an M4/M16. But if they are going Kuwait or UAE I wouldn't waste the resources.
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TSgt David L.
TSgt David L.
>1 y
I see. I retired in 09 so I lost track of what and how things were done. I know it made sense back in the day so it has to be valid in some way today.
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MSgt J D McKee
MSgt J D McKee
9 y
Not 'wasting the resources" can pretty soon lead to wasting lives.
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1stSgt Nelson Kerr
1stSgt Nelson Kerr
9 y
MSgt (Join to see) - Our culture is to put weapons an targets, Bif F'n warheads very precisely on Targets, Playing infantry trainee makes the main mission harder to do. We also deliver "beans and bacon" as required and that takes man-hours that we already are extremely short of.
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LtCol Bruce Janis
LtCol Bruce Janis
5 y
A short training period is never a waste when it can save lives. Remember all the problems in Germany with the Badder-Meinhof Gang. We are not real popular in many places of the world, and our bases stand our like a clown’s nose. Youeould deprive your troops a week’s training, just because it would be a misuse of “resources”?
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MSgt Security Business Analyst
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One last thing. In the picture above, that is not an AF Weapon. Wrong handguards, the sling swivle is in the wrong place, and it is the wrong sling for the M4.

Also, The rounds are civilian.
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SSgt Security Forces
SSgt (Join to see)
>1 y
Wow, good catch MSgt, I just took a picture from google. The picture does not show a real world scenario only a depiction of what has been witnessed.
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PO2 Builder
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Remember windage and elevation.
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Maj Robert Thornton
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I can't speak to the current USAF situation regarding firearms training, only during my career. As an RN and then a Nurse Anesthetist, I was on mobility teams, except during my time stationed in the UK. I was required to be qualified on the handgun in use at the time. I qualified on both the 38 revolver and the 9mm Berretta. Additionally, I was able to take an enlisted spot, if there was an opening, and qualify on the M-16.
Our enlisted personnel on mobility qualified with the M-16, the officers with a handgun. Even then I believed that officers should also be qualified on the M-16. The purpose of our being qualified was for the protection of ourselves and our patients in a combat zone, not perimeter security. That was to be provided by our security forces, as it was explained to me.
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TSgt Tsgt Tommy Castillo
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The Airman should be able to be called up and defend the base or anything else that needs protecting. Period
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TSgt Ed Turner
TSgt Ed Turner
>1 y
Bingo. Airmen aren't expected to be Rambos. But any combat organization should at least be able to hold the fort until the cavalry arrives.
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TSgt Tsgt Tommy Castillo
TSgt Tsgt Tommy Castillo
8 y
All Airman should be qualified because they might have to backfill untill a combat unit arrives.
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Cpl Armando Mireles
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Every service should include basic rifle/hand gun training and qualifications.
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