Posted on Dec 4, 2013
Why is it that units fight the CBRN training/program so much?
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Why is it that units fight the CBRN training/program so much we as CBRN soldiers need to maintain our proficiency as well as ensure the unit is ready so why fight when you have someone trying to put together a program for the soldiers so much because you feel it's not important? Bottom line up front I feel if we as CBRN soldiers can and will/have to perform many of the other vast array of duty positions within the army then please stop giving us the fight when we are trying to strengthen ourselves by doing our training cause if you needed those soldiers to perform their actual job many of them at this present time would be clueless and we would have a greater problem and everyone would be saying why don't you know your job you got trained in it. Just venting my apologies everyone
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Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 14
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I was one of those folks that fought CBRN training in my past units. Based on our mission set and the threat, CBRN was not relevant.
You only have so much time to train and we have to train on those critical tasks that matter based on the threat.
Now the good news - I am a full supporter of CBRN training at my unit now. We are in Okinawa and are tasked with knocking down some errant missiles coming from North Korea. Pretty sure if they are throwing stuff this way, they'll have chemicals on them.
So, based on the threat here, CBRN is very relevant and we devote quite a bit of time to it.
I think it just depends on where you're at and the threat you face as to how important CBRN training is.
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SSG (Join to see)
Csm Maynard I agree I didn't want to put out the complete situation. However lets say your unit never had a Cbrn program you told the incoming 74d that they would get full support and that it was important to you, as the 74 we start the planning process get the sop published, and conduct inspections after looking at the results of inspections I realize we need a lot of training and help to get to standard. We send out Fragos tasking the 74's in the entire unit to attend weekly training/sync meeting however no one shows up. I speak to the cdr and 1sg of the units and they believe its a waste of that soldiers time. How can they say that and never even showed up. Then a cdr emails me saying well I need the task that are being trained to tie into the METL. I explained to the cdr that the METL task are what that 74 trains to the unit however what I would be training them on is their responsibilities, retaining their mos proficiency and ensuring they knew how to train the units. This threw me for a loop cause my only was it not expected but as the senior 74 it's my responsibility to ensure those soldiers are properly trained so it kinda off put me I spoke to my boss and he didn't back me up at all but instead suggested I find another way to get my mission accomplished. Now I am a creative and willing Nco however of the support is not there and I have laid the program out and briefed the plan what else is there to accomplish?
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SSG (Join to see)
Well this my question is have you conducted that training while in MOPP 4? What is Prevention g you to incorporate CBRN with your METL Training? The same can be done I one Monday morning command maintain day and you can add one CBRN task to your Sergeant Time Training. You can do CBRN marksmanship in the EST (Mask and gloves are the minimum.
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I'm not sure that the units are fighting it (CBRN program). I think it may be more of a "lack of interest" issue. It seems to me that Commanders don't aknowledge the CBRN threat in the current theater of operations, and therefore doesn't need the same attention as other programs and duties. I have the same issue with two of my additional duties, Antiterrorism and OPSEC. Nobody seems to care until Division and Corps start talking about OIP inspections.
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Complacency stateside more than likely SSG Nelson and if you receive no support from the CMD Team, then the rest of the Soldiers will "buck" it too.
No need to apologize, its frustrating to everyone in a situation similar to yours.
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SSG (Join to see)
SSG Best your right but as leaders who are charged with ensure our soldiers are trained and proficient how are we ensuring this? Prime example the few 74's are excited because they have lost many of their skills I talk to them and try to mentor them in passing by however many of them are so consumed in the extra/additional duties that they can't do the one thing the army trained them to do. The soldiers want to learn and rehone the skills and teach the leaders and soldiers what they need to so but from constant put downs, overloads, and unsupportiveness they are now for a lack of better term feel outcasted and
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You pretty much nailed it. I think the consensus in the Army is that the CBRN program is irrelevant. A task involving fighting a non existent threat...
Now, is that a smart thought process? Of course not. It's clearly an important subject, but oftentimes we don't realize how important something is until it's biting us in the butt... Let's hope it's not something we learn the hard way..
Now, is that a smart thought process? Of course not. It's clearly an important subject, but oftentimes we don't realize how important something is until it's biting us in the butt... Let's hope it's not something we learn the hard way..
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SSG (Join to see)
Ssg you are correct but why don't we as leaders try to incorporate something into our already existent training plans to change that? Cause the hard way may be too late and some may not make it home to speak of the acts that they underwent and a chemical death is not one I would like held over my head when I can prevent it.
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SSG Langston,
The low-density training is executed during one of our 5-hour blocks of Sergeant's Time Training each month. We actually do this with all the low-density MOS's - 42s, 92s, 91s, etc.
We then direct that each unit will provide all their low-density folks for that training - no appointments, no excuses.
Now, each senior NCO for each MOS is responsible for planning the training. Whichever unit they fall under, they brief their 1SG their plan just like the rest of the PSGs brief their training plans.
Now, specifically for the 74Ds - (I'm no expert, so I trust that the tasks and training they recommend are necessary) - they do MOS training - stuff that they need to know for their job. This is mostly focused on educating them on what/how to advise the unit commander and how to manage the unit's CBRN program.
You mentioned inspections - our CBRN NCO along with the Warrant have a CBRN Inspection program where each unit gets inspected/scored once each 6-months to determine who earns the CBRN Excellence Streamer. What gets measured gets done. It helps you to "guide" units to do what they should be doing.
Finally, our CBRN NCO also is the facilitator for the units CBRN Rodeo that they hold each 6-months. Now this is mostly a collective tasks that pulls in the other 74Ds in the units and our Air Force partners to run Gas Chamber / Mask Confidence / PATS / JSLIST / Equipment, etc. It's almost a full-day of training that is round-robin in style.
So, you can see, we have our CBRN NCO fairly busy with assisting units with collective training, inspecting units, individual training, and exercises with our Air Force partners. I feel we have a pretty robust program and that myself and the Cdr have provided sufficient support to put the right amount of focus on this.
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SSG (Join to see)
Csm I agree you program has a lit of emphasis and is headed in the right direction this is the sand direction I am trying to push this one because I know what right is and looks like and want to set them up for success. Thank you once again
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SSG Langston - I'm authorized a 74D3O in my Bn, sounds like from your response, you are the Bn CBRN NCO and are executing from within that scope.
CBRN training is directly tied to METL and normally falls within the "Protection" METs/Articles.
Now, unit Cdr's do have latitude in determining which are the Key Collective Tasks that support the METL that the Bn Cdr has approved for their unit. If a unit does not have any Key Collective Tasks that fall within the CBRN realm, that is their prerogative (as long as the Bn Cdr is supporting this).
Additionally though, I know that I allow my CBRN NCO to set aside time to train all the 74Ds within the Bn in their day-to-day functions - Services, Accountability, Management, MOS Proficiency, etc. We primarily do this during our "Low Density" STT once a month and then additionally we will gather all our 74Ds up to do training with our Air Force Partners once or twice a month.
Again, as I stated, here in Okinawa and with my Mission Set, I believe that CBRN proficiency is critical and that's why we devote the time/resources to it.
In your case, if the Bn Cdr/CSM are supporting you and the S3 is publishing OPORDs/FRAGOs, it is not you that they are blowing off, it is the Bn Cdr. You should address your concerns with the S3 as they are the Task Managers for the Bn.
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SSG (Join to see)
Csm Maynard, correct I am tracking. Thank you for your advice and support on this will attempt more re engagement on this.
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SSG (Join to see)
Csm out of curiosity how did you have your Cbrn Nco present and develop his plan for his low density training? I guess what I'm really trying to understand is as the CBRN Nco at the BN level he should be planning and inspecting subordinate
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SSG (Join to see)
But many units don't have Cbrn tied into the metl and I understand that but when it comes for the Cbrn Nco to execute his task they are no longer the metl task from the BN they are the troops/company metl that the assigned Cbrn Nco at that level should be executing correct?
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SSG (Join to see)
But many units don't have Cbrn tied into the metl and I understand that but when it comes for the Cbrn Nco to execute his task they are no longer the metl task from the BN they are the troops/company metl that the assigned Cbrn Nco at that level should be executing correct?
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Last time I had CBRN training was via power point, I mean common, we got nothing to train with unless you are on active duty. But Guard and Reserves got nothing besides pro masks. so what can you do with it ? Put in on and pretend you are in a Chemical Environment? its a joke and no soldier is going to take it seriously especially a young E-1 fresh out of basic. Even there all they do is throw a can of tear gas or whatever it is and what does that do, make you cry and cough.
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SSG (Join to see)
Ssg P, once again don't limit yourself to what you think how are we as leaders expect out soldiers to maintain and be proficient in their wtbd what you should be doing is taking out that old green thick book which is the stp and train up on what it is your soldiers need to know then go further and find a way to train them. If you would like I can send you a ton of training materials everything does not have to be in a PowerPoint however for much of us that is the only time we get soldiers some leaders to understand. You can set up Decon sites, go over individual and operational Decon. Submit Cbrn reports, even in the reserves and guard you have Cbrn equipment go to the Cbrn Nco and ask for it, trust me I know I have been in the national guard as well. There are the ICAM, jcad, anvdr2, anudr13, m41 pats, m20 scpe, m26 or m17 Decon apparatus, do Cbrn medical casualty evacuations. That is what frustrates me so much as leaders we have to create the training to be realistic, and benefits our soldiers. Incorporate conducting a recon into moving across an area, when you set up a Lz incorporate marking a contaminated area, when you perform a radio class or commo wtbd incorporate calling up Cbrn reports, if you want to pretend it really is t that hard to create a half way decent chemical environment that can harm a soldier with household supplies. Use a smog machine or smoke grenades if you can't get cs the purpose of the chamber is not to make you puke and cry it is to instill confidence in the soldiers equipment that it will protect you in a chemical environment I know many of the drill sergeants have turned this task into a hazing tool etc but that's not the intent but we as NCOs need to do better and teach better. If you would like Cbrn training we as chemical soldiers actually share amongst one another so if you would like you could visit chemicaldragon.com and browse the thousands of things on there which can also help as many great leader tools.
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SFC (Join to see)
im not in charge of that, you see im in a small det and my units main body is 300 miles away from me. Trust me I wish I was in charge of training at my unit however being fresh in this unit I noticed that their mentality is this: " oh we deployed to Iraq so now we don't have to prove ourselves to anyone" . This is what I heard during one of my first unit assemblies. This is why I cant wait leave them and go elsewhere, but no one will take me. I want to lead, train, motivate soldiers but they wont let me. I been looking for active duty for a few years now.
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SSG (Join to see)
Got it and completely understand the position your in that's why I left national guard. Try to get an AGR position as the training or operations Nco for a unit and try switch from there or work in that capacity and affect the unit in a great way and role.
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Well SSG, the answer is multifactorial . . . As the good MAJ posited in another post, NBC = Nobody Cares, until they do, that is, except for your 74A &Bs, and 54Bs (ahem, 74Ds). There are not many Chemical Officers from my yeargroup and OBC class (9-93) left on active duty, one at the School House, and one in Group. Ours is a small Corps, and for years have struggled to find a mission; when we were coming up we had only recently lost our offensive weapons and we still taught skills like Chemical and Nuclear targetting in OBC, for want of relevance we became environmental sceintists and engineers, now we are firefighters and emergency managers. Another fact is simply threat, or perceived lack thereof, until there is. In CONUS our training and response is constrained by CFR (29, 1910.120), not so downrange and outside the wire. As 'Dragon' soldiers we have an acute awareness because it is what we train on, it is what we are about, and we like our 'Retorts' - to get BN or BDE S3 to buy in, they have to trust you - that takes times and more importantly competence. Most LTs and SPCs have zeal but lack mileage and there is only one opportunity to make a first impression. By the time you have the experience and maturity to back up the 'intensity' you are a CPT / SSG and you are either echelons beyond reality at Corps or some other nominative assignment, and largely out of the fight until you are the '3' / BN, BDE NBC NCO, or better, a CM CC or 1SG. I digress . . . Keep up the good fight, keep your filters dry, and your promask near!
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True, as a prior 74D/54B SSG Nelson, bc I wasn't continually engaged with the job, I was tasked out to everything else and called back to do PATs testing, replace parts, and provide supplies PRN. To assist those few 74Ds I can only suggest that every STT they step up and provide all types of CBRN training, not just be infamous for the Gas chamber. Perhaps huddling them in and taking charge of their training and getting them as excited and motivated as you are will motivate them into generating/brainstorming better ways to provide CBRN training to the unit. Good luck Battle!
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SSG (Join to see)
Thanks SSG Best, it's been a steep incline but I am not giving up so thanks battle this comment def just lifted me a lil bit
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NBC No Body Cares....Until they do.
Nothing strikes fear in the hearts of war fighters than the thought of coughing up your own lungs because your mask is in the bottom of your duffle bag.
I learned more about NBC than I ever wanted to in my last job as the Assistant Product Manager for the NBCRV.
Nothing strikes fear in the hearts of war fighters than the thought of coughing up your own lungs because your mask is in the bottom of your duffle bag.
I learned more about NBC than I ever wanted to in my last job as the Assistant Product Manager for the NBCRV.
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SSG (Join to see)
Sir you are absolutely correct the NBCRV will open up eyes however even those are not employed properly on the battlefield the CBRN personnel try to brief the capabilities and what they bring to the fight and many commanders just put them out as a additional gun truck for security or other things.
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