Posted on Feb 23, 2015
Why meeting the standards is not enough anymore?
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Have you heard this before?
“Yes, you passed the APFT, but you didn’t maxed”
“Yes. you qualified with your weapon, but you didn’t shoot Expert”.
What are your thoughts?
“Yes, you passed the APFT, but you didn’t maxed”
“Yes. you qualified with your weapon, but you didn’t shoot Expert”.
What are your thoughts?
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Standards
Standards
Posted 11 y ago
Responses: 18
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The reality is that we live and work in a competitive environment where the folks who excel are the ones who get promoted. If you are not the one on top then you are not competitive. The sad fact is that PT and range qual scores are metrics that are easily obtained and are 100% objective. I agree that they don't measure the true value and capability of a soldier, but that is what we are stuck with.
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Well, the Corps is a little different, but that's completely the norm.
The minimum, or being near it is a sign of impending trouble, being near but not maxed means "You could work a little harder couldn't you?"
The minimum, or being near it is a sign of impending trouble, being near but not maxed means "You could work a little harder couldn't you?"
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Personally, I strive to put my best effort into everything I do. On occasion, the result is meeting the standard--nobody is great at everything. More often the outcome is well beyond the standard. Ergo, I view a person that just meets every standard as a person that isn't trying very hard.
From a mentoring standpoint, folks need to realize the low hanging drawdown fruit (eg control roster, NJP) will be gone soon. If force reductions continue, I'll wager a dollar that effort and competency will be the next discriminator. Working to exceed standards is good advice for anyone that wants to make the next cut.
My .02 only. Cheers!
From a mentoring standpoint, folks need to realize the low hanging drawdown fruit (eg control roster, NJP) will be gone soon. If force reductions continue, I'll wager a dollar that effort and competency will be the next discriminator. Working to exceed standards is good advice for anyone that wants to make the next cut.
My .02 only. Cheers!
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I think it is more of where you ambitions are. If you strive for meeting the standard I really question your commitment. If you strive to put forth the best effort possible in hopes of scoring near the top but still score a 190 I can work with you. Your commitment is there but you might need help focusing your effort to be more fruitful.
Let's be honest. Would you want to take you child to a doctor that just met the standard or one that was the best in the field. Don't we owe the nation the best Army we can give them or an Army of just making the standard?
Let's be honest. Would you want to take you child to a doctor that just met the standard or one that was the best in the field. Don't we owe the nation the best Army we can give them or an Army of just making the standard?
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SFC (Join to see)
The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
To measure true character or commitment, in my opinion the answer is not on his/her score, is the whole Soldier concept. Soldiers potential relies on more than physical. Traits such as optimism, curiosity, resilience, and “grit” may actually play a stronger role in determining character, we can’t measure heart or a Soldier will by some scoring.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
To measure true character or commitment, in my opinion the answer is not on his/her score, is the whole Soldier concept. Soldiers potential relies on more than physical. Traits such as optimism, curiosity, resilience, and “grit” may actually play a stronger role in determining character, we can’t measure heart or a Soldier will by some scoring.
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CPT (Join to see)
SFC (Join to see) I totally agree. That is why Ranger School is so successful in identifying good leaders. It takes resilience and grit as you said. It it more than just a score. It is one of the best schools in the Army I think.
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Being a soldier isn't about how well you shoot or your PT score. I would take a soldier with character and values to watch my six before a soldier who can only offer me a good weapon's score. Why? Because I can trust the soldier with character to stand their ground and watch my back. The soldier who can shoot might be a selfish SOB that cares only about saving himself and will sacrifice his teammates and the mission to do so. <- not necessarily the case.
Meeting standards aren’t the problem; it’s where the soldier is aiming. In my opinion, if the soldier is only aiming to meet standards then they are failing. If the soldier aims to exceed standards, but is only meeting standards, at least I know that they are pushing themselves to do better.
The difference is that character traits can't be 'taught' in the typical sense of the word. I'd rather have a soldier whose deficiencies can be fixed with training (weapons, PT, height/weight, etc). Unfortunately, character traits aren't quantifiable, so with downsizing the Army has to choose what they can quantify. This means that looking good on paper (NCOERs, PT, Weapons qual, etc) is critical for retention and promotion. The system doesn’t take into account a soldier’s goals or intent. Yes, I think we will be losing some outstanding soldiers using this process, but until we come up with a better process it’s all we have.
Meeting standards aren’t the problem; it’s where the soldier is aiming. In my opinion, if the soldier is only aiming to meet standards then they are failing. If the soldier aims to exceed standards, but is only meeting standards, at least I know that they are pushing themselves to do better.
The difference is that character traits can't be 'taught' in the typical sense of the word. I'd rather have a soldier whose deficiencies can be fixed with training (weapons, PT, height/weight, etc). Unfortunately, character traits aren't quantifiable, so with downsizing the Army has to choose what they can quantify. This means that looking good on paper (NCOERs, PT, Weapons qual, etc) is critical for retention and promotion. The system doesn’t take into account a soldier’s goals or intent. Yes, I think we will be losing some outstanding soldiers using this process, but until we come up with a better process it’s all we have.
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SGT Jim Z.
I agree @SGT Kristin Wiley but I believe SFC (Join to see) was just using those as examples. As we all know there are many other standards out there to meet or surpass.
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CPT (Join to see)
I totally agree. I pretty much said the same thing. It is more about their ambition and what their goals are. If they max out at the standard and don't care to improve they are worthless to me. I can't push them any further then they want. If one even fails but is there everyday busting their tail I will gladly work with as much as needed because they what I am looking for.
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Cpl Jeff N.
My guess is the Army, like the Marine Corps, looks at many scores and competencies. If you are a shitbird with a bad attitude better scores will not help you much. All things considered I want good character with an expert rifle score and a first class PFT in the foxhole with me. At some point this comes down to putting rounds on targets and perhaps physically repelling an attack.
We have 1st, 2nd andf 3rd class PFT scores as well as Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert rifle scores. No one wants to be a 3rd class PFT and a Marksman shooter. You don't get promoted with those scores. That is operating reality. Even in the civillian world you better be trying to out work/think everyone else. Being middle of the pack or back of the pack will not help your career.
Do not accept average performance (or below average). Average will not get you much in life.
We have 1st, 2nd andf 3rd class PFT scores as well as Marksman, Sharpshooter and Expert rifle scores. No one wants to be a 3rd class PFT and a Marksman shooter. You don't get promoted with those scores. That is operating reality. Even in the civillian world you better be trying to out work/think everyone else. Being middle of the pack or back of the pack will not help your career.
Do not accept average performance (or below average). Average will not get you much in life.
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My generation of service was one in which we were proud to set an example by leading from the front. I never knew who my enemy would be or cared what their level of standards were, but I was darn sure going to strive for perfection in all aspects of my training.
In the Airborne we were also held to a higher standard than someone who was a le....... I mean not a Paratrooper.
In the Airborne we were also held to a higher standard than someone who was a le....... I mean not a Paratrooper.
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Me personally I don't shoot for the standard, I always try for more even if I don't achieve it
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While I strive for exceding the standard, if I get the minimum while meeting the standard, that is an acceptable outcome. It lets me know what areas I am barely passing in. I use it as a guidepost to ensure I don't drop below the standard. If every Soldier in my section can pass their APFT it means that we can do more challenging PT.
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Meeting the standard is the very minimum expect of all of us. In the past it has been enough to keep people around but again why hold tight to those that achieve the minimum when there are others next to you that are over achieving. This is not to say that we don't need folks that just meet the minimum, we do. But if there has to be a choice between those that meet the minimum and those that over achieve the choice is very easy.
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interesting question...
so many people talk about standards, and then, when you meet them, you arent doing enough....you are supposed to exceed them???
or...
leaders are supposed to "set the standard/held to a higher standard" I thought the army already set the standard, and that there is only one??
so many people talk about standards, and then, when you meet them, you arent doing enough....you are supposed to exceed them???
or...
leaders are supposed to "set the standard/held to a higher standard" I thought the army already set the standard, and that there is only one??
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CPT (Join to see)
I think some standards are merely a baseline. The 180 for the APFT is something left in place for all MOSs in general. If you were to ask me if 180 was good enough a Paratrooper in the 82nd or a infantryman in the 10th MTN I would say no. They unit should set the standard they expect. It goes into the gray area where a soldier can pass the APFT but not meet your standard. There is something that the unit should consider before implemented such a standard.
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