Posted on Sep 13, 2016
Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?
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It wont be pretty for the O1(especially if he is just got his GWOT last night).
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As a Navy O-3 training at an Army command before deployment to Afghanistan, I called an Army CSM to attention. Why? Because from 30 feel away, in front of my junior enlisted, he screamed, "Hey, LT, get your ass over here right now!!" and pointed at the ground right at his feet. I turned to him and said CSM, can I help you? To which he repeated himself. I pointed to a telephone pole nearby and told him I'd meet him over there. When he arrived, his unprofessional tone continued and he stepped into my personal space. At that point, I placed him at attention and explained that I was a 39-year old Navy O-3 and that while I respected his device greatly, I would not be treated in such a way as to undermine my authority with my sailors. Was he butt hurt about it? You bet. Did we have a conversation with the O-6? No because he knew I was right. So there may be a time when it's OK. But those times should be really really rare.
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Ugh! Prissy butterbars. As a lowly E-5 my car wouldn't start so I jogged/power walked 2 miles to my squadron in a lovely North Carolina summer. I was just about to hit the hanger when a butterbar came walking out. My mind on being late and in a hurry I blew past him without saluting. He called me out on it and I apologized and saluted. He then proceeded to lecture me on a salute being a show of respect for officers. I replied that a salute was a courtesy extended to officers. In his position he was given the opportunity to earn our respect. I ended up having a conversation with the CO, again. (We knew each other fairly well by then.) The CO agreed with my point and strongly suggested that I remember to extend the proper courtesy to officers in the future. I don't know what transpired between the CO and the Lieutenant after I was dismissed but the next day the Lieutenant stopped by my shop and had a decent conversation with me. We ended up getting along fairly well.
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Yet another story but true.
CSM Du, little angry man from the Philippines . At the time CSM for 3rd BDE 2nd ID at Ft Lewis.
This 2nd LT had the intestinal fortitude to tell CSM Du to go to the position of attention when talking to him. He did this in front of the BDE CMD Col. Townsend, who is now Ft Bragg deputy CMDR. The LT was told to grab his S%#$ and find a new job....... he was gone never to be seen again. CSM Du smoked the entire BDE a few times including officers up to the O4 level.
CSM Du, little angry man from the Philippines . At the time CSM for 3rd BDE 2nd ID at Ft Lewis.
This 2nd LT had the intestinal fortitude to tell CSM Du to go to the position of attention when talking to him. He did this in front of the BDE CMD Col. Townsend, who is now Ft Bragg deputy CMDR. The LT was told to grab his S%#$ and find a new job....... he was gone never to be seen again. CSM Du smoked the entire BDE a few times including officers up to the O4 level.
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Yes it can happen, and has happened - at my previous Army unit during my decade of membership before I transferred into the AF. It was at that point we (as NCO's) learned that our new PL was a flagrant douche, yet, we said nothing. About an hour later, both the SGM and the PL were in the Commander's office and the SGM could be heard screaming at the PL (while taking corrective action at the Commander's behest). It wasn't pretty, and our PL remained subdued and in an observational/learning capacity for several weeks, following that incident. He actually turned out to be a pretty good leader once he was made aware of his surroundings, and his place in the pecking order. No frivolous paperwork, no ridiculous notions, just a loud and swift redirect, and he did well without losing his motivation and morale. He's a Commander, now....and a good one, from what I've been told.
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The E9 is required by UCMJ to come to attention, because even though the O1 is a junior officer, he is a Commissioned Officer and therefore the E9's superior. The O1 calling this E9 to attention in front of his troops would not be the brightest bulb in the light socket. One way would be for the O1 to tell the E9 that he would like to speak to him after formation privately! IJS!
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I come from a very different time. Today as I see it many things have changed in our military in all branches. I was in back in the early 80's and a 01 or an 02 for that matter would never even think of trying to call an E9 out like that. An 03 might think twice and use some tact in addressing the E9
In 83 I was at Little Rock AFB and our flight line expediter was and E9. We had a training crew that didn't want to fly and repeatedly would break the airplane in efforts to not fly the mission. Our E9 got fed up and went into to flight deck and told the 03 in the left seat to either fly or get off his acft. The 03 snapped at the E9 and found his flight bags being thrown out the crew entrance door. The E9 told the 03 to meet him in his commander's office in 20. Outcome was the 03 flew the mission and kept his mouth shut.
In 83 I was at Little Rock AFB and our flight line expediter was and E9. We had a training crew that didn't want to fly and repeatedly would break the airplane in efforts to not fly the mission. Our E9 got fed up and went into to flight deck and told the 03 in the left seat to either fly or get off his acft. The 03 snapped at the E9 and found his flight bags being thrown out the crew entrance door. The E9 told the 03 to meet him in his commander's office in 20. Outcome was the 03 flew the mission and kept his mouth shut.
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Absolutely. Saluting all commissioned and warrant officers is written in concrete.
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He should demonstrate leadership by example however, you can bet that the 01 will catch hell from the O's that are above him and the two them probably won't have that issue again.
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I was walking behind a master chief on base. We passed a ensign and the master chief did not render a salute.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked him if he saw his rank, the master chief replied with a yes.
The ensign then said, you have to salute me and how come you didn't? The master chief's reply, "Because I make more fing money than you." The master chief then walked off while the ensign was standing with speechless.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked him if he saw his rank, the master chief replied with a yes.
The ensign then said, you have to salute me and how come you didn't? The master chief's reply, "Because I make more fing money than you." The master chief then walked off while the ensign was standing with speechless.
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CPO Bill Penrod
If I was witnessed this disrepect the master chief and I would have to have a "take off your anchor" discussion........
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I have seen one instance related to this topic.
I was in civilian clothes leaving the barracks and I was walking behind a master chief (in inform). This ensign (butter bar) was walking towards us. The master chief never rendered a salute and kept walking.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked, "did you see my rank?" The master chief replied, "I did." The ensign then told master chief you are suppose to salute me and asked how come he didn't. Master chief's reply, "Because I make more money than you!"
Master Chief then turned and walked away. The ensign was standing with a deer in the headlights look on his face.
I was in civilian clothes leaving the barracks and I was walking behind a master chief (in inform). This ensign (butter bar) was walking towards us. The master chief never rendered a salute and kept walking.
The ensign then stopped the master chief and asked, "did you see my rank?" The master chief replied, "I did." The ensign then told master chief you are suppose to salute me and asked how come he didn't. Master chief's reply, "Because I make more money than you!"
Master Chief then turned and walked away. The ensign was standing with a deer in the headlights look on his face.
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i'd take a video camera and record the action of the butter bar getting put into his place...lol
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Having served at Fort Richardson, my last duty station in the 80's, I was desk bound and working for two Captains. One of which was a true officer and the other was a special kind of a**hole. Capt. P would consistently berate enlisted and considered that his five jumps for his wings made him a hardcore paratrooper. But I digress. I had a buddy who was an E-6 that worked in secure records room down stairs who we called the old man. He was in his mid-forties and Captain P. would always comment that he must have done something wrong or that he was a slacker for not having obtained at least E-7 by now. However, on the day that he retired, it was a beautiful thing. At the retirement ceremony, most of the entire building and a multitude of others attended, Captain P. was standing there when the E-6 walked up...except he wasn't wearing his normal BDUs...he was in full dress, with officer strips, Major oak leafs, Silver Star, Bronze Star, Purple Heart, CIB, Jump Wings, Ranger Tab and a multitude of others ribbons from Vietnam that I did not recognize. When Captain P., who was standing there with just his wings and three non-combat ribbons and had to render that salute....it made me smile. I don't know the whole story, but Captain L. told me that the SSGT. had a battlefield commission in Vietnam, made it to 0-4 and held it long enough to retire at it, but with the cuts in the 1970's he did not have the education for retention in a the peace time army and was offered either a revert to enlisted or separation into reserves as an officer...I still don't fully comprehend that, but for just a minute, it was a beautiful day in the 6th ID....
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I recall a similar situation when my Div-O, a Lt., was bumped up the chain and replaced by a shavetail ensign. I had more time in service than him and I was a lowly E-3. Our CPO was a no-nonsense kind of guy with 17 years in. EN Snotnose was attempting to dress down the chief because he showed up to evening muster with paint on his shoes. Chief stood there at attention for the entire speech, about five minutes. After the ensign was done chief did a smart about face, saluted the CMDR behind him and said, "All yours, Sir." We heard the reeducation two decks down.
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You bet your sweet ass he would...rank is rank and failure to do so is a violation of military regs and protocols.
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If a Lieutenant locked up a SGM/CSM, he better be prepared to take on his Bn and/or Bde Cdr as well.
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I saw this happen years ago ... The E-9 complied with the order .. and the next day the O-1 was being transferred to another command .. and I am sure not with a good OER ...
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Never had the opportunity to see this wonder. However, I did once see an E6 open a door, have a GENERAL come walk in, and have the E6 nod and walk away. Luckilly I did not drop in shock and hollered "ROOM TEN HUT!" Our Colonel had a few choice words for the E6....
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Hell No...that butter bar may outrank the E9 but at the end of the day there's is time and place for everything...there's no way I'm going to have a 2LT, not even a CPT..no way, if that E9 allows that kind of stuff he/she needs to be demoted..
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