Posted on Sep 13, 2016
Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?
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Different situation, but since the popcorn is out.... A few years ago (I was still an E8 as I am today) in Kansas. Two officers, one male one female, both O4s, were walking towards me. The male was to the far right (my left) . I saluted and said "Good afternoon Sir." and kept walking. Then from behind me, female voice "Excuse me 1SG?" I turned back around. "Ma'am?". "I'm just curious how you chose him to give the greeting of the day and not me." "Ma'am, based on all available information, he is senior to you." "All available inf...?" "Ma'am he was walking on your right, where the senior ranking person is supposed to be." "Oh...OK, thank you." I salute her, "Have a nice day Ma'am." and continue on my way, so if you hear a Major or new LTC tell this story from his point of view, it is perfectly true. Made my day. I wish I had turned around to see if she took the position to the right after that.
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Military lives by having rank. It is necessary but that doesn't mean that there are not times to make an impression by doing what is right. One of my fondest memories is of when I was SHORT (1971) in the 82nd Airborne and was pulling CQ as an E-5. After 5 pm all doors were locked except the main door everyone was to use, but due to safety you could get out by using the crash bar. CQ desk was in the hallway by the main door and all visitors were to sign in at that point and monitor all egress to prevent theft. I was notified by someone that someone was trying to get in the locked door at the other end of the barracks. I called back and told him to tell him to come around to the proper door. He called back and told me I had better come tell him because it was the IG, (Colonel). When I approached the door he began cursing me and giving me direct orders to open the door. I refused citing 82nd regs that the doors would only be used in emergencies to escape not to enter. More cursing and direct orders and by this time I had several people behind me including the Sgt. of the Guard who came up behind me and was telling me that it was the IG. I told the Sgt. of the Guard that he may let the IG in but would escort him to the desk to sign in. I turned and left and reached the mid point in the hallway when the IG caught up with me followed by the Sgt. of the Guard. He began chewing me out and I must admit that I was slouched when he said, "Don't you stand at attention when an officer talks to you"? I snapped to attention and told him that he was in my barracks now and would come to my desk, sign in, and state his business. I turned and left him there and went to the desk and he followed telling me that he represented the General and did not have to sign in. I told him that the General would sign in if he came in while I was CQ. I told the runner that I was making a tour of the barracks and if the IG stepped one foot past the desk without signing in to call the MP's. When I returned, he was gone.
I filled out the CQ report, about 4 pages, with quotes for everyone. Next morning I gave it all to Top without mentioning the incident and was relieved of my duty. Went up to my room, showered. and broke starch and was lacing my boots when there was a knock on the door. Told Top wanted to see me. Told him I would be down in 5 minutes. Reported to 1st Sgt. and told the CO wanted to see me. Went to his door, knocked, told to enter, approached his desk, saluted. Told to dispense with that and have a seat.
Asked to tell the story again and afterward was told by the CO "...I would never hear anything about this issue again". I didn't.
I filled out the CQ report, about 4 pages, with quotes for everyone. Next morning I gave it all to Top without mentioning the incident and was relieved of my duty. Went up to my room, showered. and broke starch and was lacing my boots when there was a knock on the door. Told Top wanted to see me. Told him I would be down in 5 minutes. Reported to 1st Sgt. and told the CO wanted to see me. Went to his door, knocked, told to enter, approached his desk, saluted. Told to dispense with that and have a seat.
Asked to tell the story again and afterward was told by the CO "...I would never hear anything about this issue again". I didn't.
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I never allowed myself to be put in a position where I would need to direct an E-9 to come to attention. Any disagreement I ever had with any E-9, whether CSM or SGM, was handled in a sit-down session, usually in their office. And we always came away with an understanding that left us in each others good graces.
The only time I ever had any such situation arise was with a CW3 when I was a 1LT. He was standing outside with no cover, smoking a cigarette and didn't offer a salute as I approached.
I took him inside to his office and made sure he understood the Army rank structure and the difference between warrant officers and commissioned officers and what the standards of appearance were in our unit.
The only time I ever had any such situation arise was with a CW3 when I was a 1LT. He was standing outside with no cover, smoking a cigarette and didn't offer a salute as I approached.
I took him inside to his office and made sure he understood the Army rank structure and the difference between warrant officers and commissioned officers and what the standards of appearance were in our unit.
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I saw this happen once in person. A CSM made a disparaging remark to a 2LT in front of the battalion HQ. The 2LT locked his heels, tore him up one side and down the other. When she was done she went straight to the BN CDR's office, told him what she had done, and said if he had a problem with her correcting the CSM's sexist bullshit she'd be happy to find another job. He didn't.
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Yes he would. Had our LT call the SGM to the position of attention, while the csm was chewing his ass. Csm complied. The LT wasn't with the platoon or company much longer. He was "repurposed". There's a reason no one walked on his grass! Also had a 1st Sgt tell the captain, in no uncertain terms, that he should unfuck himself before he did it for him. Ah, good times.....
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There was an incident at a unit I was with in Germany. The Brigade CSM was at our company and had removed his headgear as he entered the door. About this time, a 2LT was walking out the door and the CSM gave her the greeting of the day. She stopped and said "you're supposed to salute". He turned around, stepped back outside, and saluted. It seemed to make her day that she had this power. The next day her soul was crushed when the Bde Cdr called and basically told the Co Cdr to bring her junior officer to heel. At the time, and in front of troops, the CSM remained professional even though, having crossed paths inside the doorway with his headgear off,, the 2LT was wrong. He won the Battle in the end though.
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True story seen with my own eyes and ears. On a day we were wearing Charlie's a Master Gunns walks by two 2nd Lt's without saluting. One Lt turns around and says hey Master Gunns you didn't salute us. The Master Gunns stops turns around points to his chevron and says see these rockers? Climb over my shoulder and kiss my ass and walks away. I was a PFC and from that day forward I always wanted to be a Master Gunnery Sergeant!
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If and I say if the situation is to the point of any senior rank needing to do something like that someone is 8 up. If the officer is smart and is a true leader you will never see such a thing unless your behind the doors where it should take place in private. Even as a SPC I have taken senior nco's and officers to the side later and corrected them. Only once have I ever had to cuss yell and put down a SGT in front of other NCO'S and officers and that was due partially her big mouth and safety violations on a obstacles course when I was attempting to save another NCO from falling. After taking the assignment chewing I explained to my plt Sgt what happened then he delt with her. We respect the rank not the person until that person puts them self or others at risk
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I was a seasoned NCO and rated among the best. We had a new LT. in Kuwait who just could not have any less common sense. I repeated advised that his plan of action would result in definite mission failure. He chewed my ass up and down in front of the other SQL's and I said 6 bags full charlie mike LT. Well he screwed it all up and damn near got troops killed when I told the troops to do what we had trained for. I was briefed before the AAR by the Regimental CSM. That he was going to call me out in front of the Colonel & Cdr & )-1 (both briefed by the RCSM but I did not know that) The RSCM asks me why I let a poor new 0-1 set up a mission that could cause casualities and destroy the op sec. I replied I failed Sergeant Major. The Colonel tells me to wait outside the tent and yells Bullshit Sgt that will never happen again if you want to keep that rank. I leave puzzled a bit. Then as I wait outside the tent I hear the Colonel ask the Lieutenant what he recommended. The LT threw me under the bus and said I would have taken his advice had it been offered. The Colonel then got pissed. He screamed at the LT go pack your shit, your headed stateside. I spoke to the troops you Lying bastard. That is a fine NCO. I felt like a god and then the Colonel told me never put up with any shit from a rookie. You have a problem make the choice I have your back.
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The baddest CSM I knew was about 5ft 6 and the I am sure he would have come to attention, about 2 inches from the 2Lt. I once ask him why he always got that close to people and his response was, if I can make you nervous by standing close to you, what does that say about you with dealing with stress.
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I was only in Army for a short while as a 2LT, then a 1LT. I never encountered a senior or mid-level NCO who showed me anything less than professional respect. I reciprocated, and everyone got along. This scenario has less to do with being an officer than it does with being a general all-around turd.
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You obey orders. Its part of your oath. You might not like it but it's the rank structure.
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all i can sat to this is this. as a soldier/salior/airman/marine we are all taught to respect those who our rank us. respect goes up it does not have to do down. with that. yes CSM/SGM would have to go to attention address the LT apporpriately. after all is said and done. when tempers calm down, if in the same battalion meeting with the BC would be at hand to school the young officer on leadeship respect and dignity. if was a LT from another unit then there would be phone calls made. and yes PSGs train LTs 1sgt/MSG train capt. and SGM/CSM tain and work with MAJ and above. and when i say train. keep in mind that most of the times an NCO is in position for 3 to 6 years. where an officer is typically in postion for 18month so teh SGM and CSM would train thier officers on customs and practicies of the unit but also support (role of the chain of support) the chain of command once a desicion is made. now for that young LT. he will have his feelings hurt, hopefully he/she can learn from it and move on and take a positive lesson from it. now with that being said. I have seen a CPT tell the BN CSM you will do as I say when I say to do it the capt was prior enlisted, they were in a pissinig contest (jubject i can't remember) but after all cooled down you seen the two of them laughing and joking. and yes the cpt did appologize to the CSM with something to the effect of SGT MAJ, sorry about that man, i was just pissed and you caught it. they shook hands and was done.
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I was carrying a couple slave cables out the front door of our armory and here comes a LTC carrying a printer( me was a PFC,oh joy). We passed each other and locked eyes, and said "Wanna forget this happened sir?" His response was " Ya damn skippy Private, carry on."
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This really would depend on who was around. If it is only the 2 men, likely the younger one would get a lesson on respect for elders, followed by a build them back up moment. if it were a group of people then I would expect the E-9 to show the respect for the rank in front of him, followed by a personal meeting soon there after. E-9 get where they are because they lead by good example typically. Not to mention they have a high level of respect for the military and traditions. Ultimately the young officer would soon get a lesson in some of those traditions, the one where the salty old dog teaches officers how to be leaders of men.
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The E-9 would have to comply because an officer is over an Enlisted regardless of rank. It's called respecting the rank. You don't have to respect the person but you must respect the rank.
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Of course he would have to, but I'm sure afterwards the LT would be talked to about his place in the food chain.
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