Posted on Sep 13, 2016
Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?
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As a retired lifer, I will say I have seen a few E9s that needed to be dressed down by O1's, O2's & O3s. Funny story, about 39 years ago while in ADA, we had a smart-ass O9 that was coming around with a LTC (another useless position) for a MAIT inspection. I guess because he was with the LTC, he thought his $hit didn't stink. Well he came to out BOC site talking $hit and making lives miserable, he managed to alienate both the enlisted an our older 1Lt. Well he bite the wrong a$$. The Lt invited the SGM for a private conversation. When the returned the SGM looked a little ruffled but his attitude completely change. He treated us all with the respect we deserved being on the miserable hill in Germany. During the inspections deficiencies were discovered, we were given the change to correct for re-inspection. We came out looking good and better at our jobs because things were explained and we were better trained. It turns out that the Lt was an E-7 with about 11 years in service with a couple of tours in Vietnam before he was commissioned. He was fully aware what was NCO business and what was Officers business and did not cross the line and wasn't about to let the SGM cross the line. That scene stuck in my mind and made me a better NCO.
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The O1 would either get laughed at, or put in his place with a quickness. I don't know a single Master Chief that wouldn't lose his shit on the Ensign. I don't know how other services do things, but we don't play that shit in the Navy...at least not in the 19 years I've been in.
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CPO (Join to see)
Let me follow that up by saying the O1 would be pulled aside and it would be done in private, unless the O1 was really special and forced the E9s hand.
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As a former junior officer, I would have never presumed to "lock up" an E9. If I had a problem, or if there was a disagreement, a simple conversation would suffice. As it was, I had a ton of respect for my senior NCOs and never presumed I knew better than them since they had the wealth of experience and knowledge I did not. The way I saw it, if you weren't a dirtbag, I gave you the respect your rank and your person deserved. They were the ones training me to be a better leader and officer.
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I have personally seen a butter bar get his bell rung for arguing with a CSM, that major reamed him big time.
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I wouldn't count on it. Unless it was in front of young soldiers, and even then I doubt it.
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I had the luxury of getting to know my Battalion MSgt and working with him in country (Iraq) in 2007. As WPNS CO Police Sgt, it was an unspoken rule to familiarize ones self with as many people possible to improve the likelyhood of exemplary job performance. After we returned back to CONUS, he was promoted to MGySgt and even shared a soda with me down the road. One morning well after colors was played, he swung by the office and asked me to join him in the smoke pit. while there, he advised me that it had come to his attention that I would be receiving a personal award for my services in Iraq and wanted to congratulate me on the hard work put into it.
A 2ntLt was approaching and I uttered the traditional warning of "stand by...", to which he replied "no, we're talking, and the butter bar can wait for his salute". Speechless, I stood there with cigarette in hand with jaw dropped. The O-1 approached and opened up with "Marines, I do believe as an Officer I warrant a salute and an appropriate greeting of the day." To which the E-9 before me replied "Sir, this teufel and I are engaged in an important conversation to which you've rudely interrupted just because you've got something shiny on your collar. If you want a salute, you can climb over my chevrons and find one. Good morning, sir."
I know that was far from the right thing to do, but being outranked by both and witnessing the blatant disrespect, I undoubtedly would've received harsher words had I attempted to intercept the choice words.
On the other hand, I had finally seen what happens to an officer that barked at a senior enlisted Marine and I was very silently chuckling inside. It's still no excuse, as I should've said something. But for once, I enjoyed not being the one in a higher-ups crosshairs.
A 2ntLt was approaching and I uttered the traditional warning of "stand by...", to which he replied "no, we're talking, and the butter bar can wait for his salute". Speechless, I stood there with cigarette in hand with jaw dropped. The O-1 approached and opened up with "Marines, I do believe as an Officer I warrant a salute and an appropriate greeting of the day." To which the E-9 before me replied "Sir, this teufel and I are engaged in an important conversation to which you've rudely interrupted just because you've got something shiny on your collar. If you want a salute, you can climb over my chevrons and find one. Good morning, sir."
I know that was far from the right thing to do, but being outranked by both and witnessing the blatant disrespect, I undoubtedly would've received harsher words had I attempted to intercept the choice words.
On the other hand, I had finally seen what happens to an officer that barked at a senior enlisted Marine and I was very silently chuckling inside. It's still no excuse, as I should've said something. But for once, I enjoyed not being the one in a higher-ups crosshairs.
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Actually I'm a retired E-8 Infantry and had a few of these experiences personally. They never turned out well for the little shits that didn't know their butter bar was an opportunity to learn the real way of how the military works and not try to love themselves.
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As a new E-5, I was on CQ duty. About 05:45 1SGT comes in, followed about 5 minutes later by a newly minted O-1 reporting in for his first duty station. I came to attention, greeted him and was promptly chewed out for not saluting him. Top came out of his office, asked the O-1 to please step in his office with him. Top told me I was relieved and could go. He proceeded to chew this O-1 a new asshole. I was in the off base locker room preparing to leave for home when the O-1 knocked on the door, introduced himself as my new Plt Ldr and apologized for eating me out for not saluting indoors.
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Different situation, but since the popcorn is out.... A few years ago (I was still an E8 as I am today) in Kansas. Two officers, one male one female, both O4s, were walking towards me. The male was to the far right (my left) . I saluted and said "Good afternoon Sir." and kept walking. Then from behind me, female voice "Excuse me 1SG?" I turned back around. "Ma'am?". "I'm just curious how you chose him to give the greeting of the day and not me." "Ma'am, based on all available information, he is senior to you." "All available inf...?" "Ma'am he was walking on your right, where the senior ranking person is supposed to be." "Oh...OK, thank you." I salute her, "Have a nice day Ma'am." and continue on my way, so if you hear a Major or new LTC tell this story from his point of view, it is perfectly true. Made my day. I wish I had turned around to see if she took the position to the right after that.
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Military lives by having rank. It is necessary but that doesn't mean that there are not times to make an impression by doing what is right. One of my fondest memories is of when I was SHORT (1971) in the 82nd Airborne and was pulling CQ as an E-5. After 5 pm all doors were locked except the main door everyone was to use, but due to safety you could get out by using the crash bar. CQ desk was in the hallway by the main door and all visitors were to sign in at that point and monitor all egress to prevent theft. I was notified by someone that someone was trying to get in the locked door at the other end of the barracks. I called back and told him to tell him to come around to the proper door. He called back and told me I had better come tell him because it was the IG, (Colonel). When I approached the door he began cursing me and giving me direct orders to open the door. I refused citing 82nd regs that the doors would only be used in emergencies to escape not to enter. More cursing and direct orders and by this time I had several people behind me including the Sgt. of the Guard who came up behind me and was telling me that it was the IG. I told the Sgt. of the Guard that he may let the IG in but would escort him to the desk to sign in. I turned and left and reached the mid point in the hallway when the IG caught up with me followed by the Sgt. of the Guard. He began chewing me out and I must admit that I was slouched when he said, "Don't you stand at attention when an officer talks to you"? I snapped to attention and told him that he was in my barracks now and would come to my desk, sign in, and state his business. I turned and left him there and went to the desk and he followed telling me that he represented the General and did not have to sign in. I told him that the General would sign in if he came in while I was CQ. I told the runner that I was making a tour of the barracks and if the IG stepped one foot past the desk without signing in to call the MP's. When I returned, he was gone.
I filled out the CQ report, about 4 pages, with quotes for everyone. Next morning I gave it all to Top without mentioning the incident and was relieved of my duty. Went up to my room, showered. and broke starch and was lacing my boots when there was a knock on the door. Told Top wanted to see me. Told him I would be down in 5 minutes. Reported to 1st Sgt. and told the CO wanted to see me. Went to his door, knocked, told to enter, approached his desk, saluted. Told to dispense with that and have a seat.
Asked to tell the story again and afterward was told by the CO "...I would never hear anything about this issue again". I didn't.
I filled out the CQ report, about 4 pages, with quotes for everyone. Next morning I gave it all to Top without mentioning the incident and was relieved of my duty. Went up to my room, showered. and broke starch and was lacing my boots when there was a knock on the door. Told Top wanted to see me. Told him I would be down in 5 minutes. Reported to 1st Sgt. and told the CO wanted to see me. Went to his door, knocked, told to enter, approached his desk, saluted. Told to dispense with that and have a seat.
Asked to tell the story again and afterward was told by the CO "...I would never hear anything about this issue again". I didn't.
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I never allowed myself to be put in a position where I would need to direct an E-9 to come to attention. Any disagreement I ever had with any E-9, whether CSM or SGM, was handled in a sit-down session, usually in their office. And we always came away with an understanding that left us in each others good graces.
The only time I ever had any such situation arise was with a CW3 when I was a 1LT. He was standing outside with no cover, smoking a cigarette and didn't offer a salute as I approached.
I took him inside to his office and made sure he understood the Army rank structure and the difference between warrant officers and commissioned officers and what the standards of appearance were in our unit.
The only time I ever had any such situation arise was with a CW3 when I was a 1LT. He was standing outside with no cover, smoking a cigarette and didn't offer a salute as I approached.
I took him inside to his office and made sure he understood the Army rank structure and the difference between warrant officers and commissioned officers and what the standards of appearance were in our unit.
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I saw this happen once in person. A CSM made a disparaging remark to a 2LT in front of the battalion HQ. The 2LT locked his heels, tore him up one side and down the other. When she was done she went straight to the BN CDR's office, told him what she had done, and said if he had a problem with her correcting the CSM's sexist bullshit she'd be happy to find another job. He didn't.
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Yes he would. Had our LT call the SGM to the position of attention, while the csm was chewing his ass. Csm complied. The LT wasn't with the platoon or company much longer. He was "repurposed". There's a reason no one walked on his grass! Also had a 1st Sgt tell the captain, in no uncertain terms, that he should unfuck himself before he did it for him. Ah, good times.....
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There was an incident at a unit I was with in Germany. The Brigade CSM was at our company and had removed his headgear as he entered the door. About this time, a 2LT was walking out the door and the CSM gave her the greeting of the day. She stopped and said "you're supposed to salute". He turned around, stepped back outside, and saluted. It seemed to make her day that she had this power. The next day her soul was crushed when the Bde Cdr called and basically told the Co Cdr to bring her junior officer to heel. At the time, and in front of troops, the CSM remained professional even though, having crossed paths inside the doorway with his headgear off,, the 2LT was wrong. He won the Battle in the end though.
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True story seen with my own eyes and ears. On a day we were wearing Charlie's a Master Gunns walks by two 2nd Lt's without saluting. One Lt turns around and says hey Master Gunns you didn't salute us. The Master Gunns stops turns around points to his chevron and says see these rockers? Climb over my shoulder and kiss my ass and walks away. I was a PFC and from that day forward I always wanted to be a Master Gunnery Sergeant!
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If and I say if the situation is to the point of any senior rank needing to do something like that someone is 8 up. If the officer is smart and is a true leader you will never see such a thing unless your behind the doors where it should take place in private. Even as a SPC I have taken senior nco's and officers to the side later and corrected them. Only once have I ever had to cuss yell and put down a SGT in front of other NCO'S and officers and that was due partially her big mouth and safety violations on a obstacles course when I was attempting to save another NCO from falling. After taking the assignment chewing I explained to my plt Sgt what happened then he delt with her. We respect the rank not the person until that person puts them self or others at risk
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