Posted on Sep 13, 2016
Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?
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I was enlisted, made E5 before OCS and retired out as an O5... I have seen some E* and E9 troops that should be locked up and read the riot act, but likely not by a 2LT unless it was an issue of serious injury... but some of the comments about Jo are funny... last I remember you take an oath to take orders of those appointed over you... also different mentalities in combat arms and non combat arms units... in a cav squadron I was assigned to before OCS, the CSM would great newly assigned company grade officers... he always addressed them as "sir" but would highlight the need for a haircut, uniform issues, spit shined boots, etc. and tell them to come check with him before they meet the commander as not to have them embarrassed if the old man ate them up on the initial visit... he was squared, hard but did not talk down to the JOs just helped them look squared away... and to realize the "cav standard"...as I was leaving for OCS, called me to ask why I did not want to work to be a CSM one day... then found a LT that had recently graduated OCS to tell me what to expect... then when I was leaving to Benning he called me in and gave me a butter bar, said he was proud of me and to put that bar inside my helmet liner and when times got hard to look at the bar and focus... then told me he did not want to see me again until I was commissioned... bottom line I was more scared of CSM and did not want to let him down vs any of my tactical officers or RI's that I ever met... but as an O3, and as a field grade locked up a few SGM/CSM who truly needed it; normally out of site of troops, as well as a few WO's that needed it... same with troops, but again normally not in front of others unless absolutely necessary.. as a commander 4 times my senior NCOs new that I had their backs when it came to supporting UCMJ issues... that way troops didn't come before me for silly shit, that is easily handled by the NCO Corps, as troops knew it would be hammer time... and the NCO leadership could truly run the unit as needed... I truly believe all Officers should do two years enlisted time until they pin on their O1... when your enlisted you are trained in your specific MOS and JO's receive a little about their specific branch, but also have some training in personnel, logistics, operations, communications, etc.... just enough for orientation and the idea you will learn more specifics depending whatever job you are assigned... thus some JOs come across as book smart but no military knowledge... lastly, had a friend that was an E7 (P), and took a direct commission to 2LT... was an SF stud, Vietnam vet...Silver Star, 6 Purple Heats, master blaster, Ranger, bla bla... anyway hilarious to see him in dress blues with all his warrior awards and medals walking @ field grade officers that looked naked in comparison to this "butter bar"... he was the oldest 2LT, 1LT, CPT, and MAJ on AD... was a great Soldier's Soldier at all grades he held...
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SGM (Join to see)
LTC Steve Jordan, You have laid out some great points and I thank you for your service on both sides of the ranks. I salute you "Sir" and I am sure you can reference my comments and see the ladder ones as comments a Combat Arms Soldier would say, especially since I grew up around a lot of Vietnam Era Senior NCOs and Officers. By no mean was my comments to degrade or take awake from respecting officers or even other NCOs. I know what a professional leader should do and how to conduct myself in such a manner. If anyone new our Former Chief of Staff "GEN Casey", he was a great leader as a Battalion Commander and an Outstanding Leader as the Army Chief of Staff. I knew the UCMJ manual from cover to cover so as AR 600-20 "Army Command Policy" as well. Those were the key manuals that always kept me on the straight and narrow in which I knew the do's and the don'ts. It was my duty to respect the rank but I didn't have to respect the person, I lived and breath the UCMJ, Military Customs and Courtesy Manual and would eat others lunch for not abiding by them. Thanks for your outstanding comments "Army Strong".
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SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates
The thumbs up was in direct response (and cheers) to the part about not disappointing your SGM/CSM, especially those who went to bat for you, bragged on you, or arranged for you to get special recognition based on a high opinion of you. I put my body through more abuse just so I could maintain the perceived high standard set by my SGM/CSM. I made sure I was always prepared to face them, especially since I had to work with them or meet with them on any given day. I was less apprehensive about any one officer I ran across than the senior enlisted I worked with.
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The best thing I ever witnessed was on my first day at my first duty station. I was a E-2 Airman and didn't know anything. As I was walking up the stairs to report into my SQ, there was a brand new butter bar in front of me. Coming down the stairs was a Chief (E-9), who saluted the 2nd Lt and said "good morning Lt." As they passed the butter bar thought it was his job to stop the Chief and bring him to attention and "fix" his salute. After being dismissed, the Chief put his stuff in his car and went back up the stairs to the SQ. About an hour later, I was sitting next to the same butter bar doing some inprocessing on the computers. A Capt came into the office and asked for the butter bar to come with him, saying " the Commander would like to talk to you." The LT walked into the office and gave a reporting statement, the CC turned and looked at the couch and asked the Chief sitting there if he would like some more coffee. The Chief said no, I am good Sir. The CC asked the Chief to go about his day and he would meet up with him later. The LT was still holding the salute as the Chief walked by and then the CC asked the Chief to close the door behind him. The door and walls were thin enough to hear ever word that was being said to the LT and where he rates in this military. I believe the phrase, "The man you corrected his salute has more time in this military than you have alive."
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Way back when I was a 2LT (1969, Ft Bragg, Airborne), I watched the Bn CSM just completely ream out a PFC for failing to salute the Co CDR. "Good," I thought. We need discipline . Not one minute later, the same CSM walked past me, looked me in the eye and didn't salute. Yes. I locked his heels. And There were no trips to the Bn CDR or any such nonsense. I had his respect from that day forward. No matter what you might think of 2LTs, they are officers and SGMs and CSMs are enlisted and there is protocol. Throughout my career, I always relied on my NCOs and I always had their back. I would never have tolerated any of them disrespecting even a 2LT.
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Yes, the CSM/SGM would have to comply. But there is much more to this issue. Why are the SGM/CSM and 2LT having a disagreement? What could they possibly be talking about where there is disagreement? Where is the 2LT's PSG and why isn't he involved in this? If the SGM/CSM and 2LT are disagreeing and it comes to the 2LT pulling rank, things have already gone downhill where really the only option the SGM/CSM has at that point is to snap to, say "yes Sir!!", and move out. THAT is what a squared away SGM/CSM would do. Disrespecting the 2LT is not something I would expect from a SGM/CSM.
NOW, the 2LT can most likely expect a chat forthcoming from the SGM/CSM's commander (a LTC at the least) and depending on what the disagreement was, it will be a learning experience for the 2LT. SGM/CSMs don't get to where they are by not knowing a lot of stuff. I imagine an apology from the 2LT to the SGM/CSM would be forthcoming after that chat. I have had 3 CSMs during my command time and 2 of them were outstanding. My subordinate officers understood that if the CSM was telling them something, 99.9% of the time the CSM and I had already discussed it and he and I were on the same page. The other .1% of the time the CSM knew my intent and command philosophy and they would be wise to listen to him. The Bn CSM and Bn XO are what I call freebies. Subordinate officers should seek out their counsel and do it often. That said, I would personally get a kick out of a 2LT with the balls to lock the heels of my CSM and would probably rag my CSM mercilessly (behind closed doors of course) if it happened to him. But if that ever happened, unless my CSM was so wrong as to violate UCMJ or get somebody injured, the 2LT would learn to never do that again. My approach when disagreeing with any subordinate is to hear everything, make a decision, then have them execute. The only time you should have to pull rank is when someone is disrespecting a superior. When that happens, the subordinate has lost military bearing and the superior has allowed conditions to fester where the subordinate feels it is acceptable to disrespect them. Not good no matter how you look at it.
Regarding addressing Soldiers, I always call them by their rank and last name. No first names. They earned their rank and whatever it is, deserves respect, a Private as much as a General.
NOW, the 2LT can most likely expect a chat forthcoming from the SGM/CSM's commander (a LTC at the least) and depending on what the disagreement was, it will be a learning experience for the 2LT. SGM/CSMs don't get to where they are by not knowing a lot of stuff. I imagine an apology from the 2LT to the SGM/CSM would be forthcoming after that chat. I have had 3 CSMs during my command time and 2 of them were outstanding. My subordinate officers understood that if the CSM was telling them something, 99.9% of the time the CSM and I had already discussed it and he and I were on the same page. The other .1% of the time the CSM knew my intent and command philosophy and they would be wise to listen to him. The Bn CSM and Bn XO are what I call freebies. Subordinate officers should seek out their counsel and do it often. That said, I would personally get a kick out of a 2LT with the balls to lock the heels of my CSM and would probably rag my CSM mercilessly (behind closed doors of course) if it happened to him. But if that ever happened, unless my CSM was so wrong as to violate UCMJ or get somebody injured, the 2LT would learn to never do that again. My approach when disagreeing with any subordinate is to hear everything, make a decision, then have them execute. The only time you should have to pull rank is when someone is disrespecting a superior. When that happens, the subordinate has lost military bearing and the superior has allowed conditions to fester where the subordinate feels it is acceptable to disrespect them. Not good no matter how you look at it.
Regarding addressing Soldiers, I always call them by their rank and last name. No first names. They earned their rank and whatever it is, deserves respect, a Private as much as a General.
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According to regs yes but reallity, no, never seen it, won't happen. There was a LT whom during a 101st division run tried to pull that on the division SGM, that SGM not only put him in his place but that LT also received a GOMOR for the division commander
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The best example I can think of under these circumstances was one I personally experienced ... back as a young airman working in-shop maintenance on sensitive electronic equipment, in the middle of a delicate calibration, the shop was called to attention when a visiting general was escorted through .. I alone didn't stop, nor did I stand. Someone came up behind me and asked me what I was doing, I explained without taking my hands or my eyes off of my job ... over my shoulder I heard someone arguing that I was disrespecting a general officer ... the next question I received was 'what would happen if you stopped in the middle of what you're doing right this moment' .. I replied, still not looking over my shoulder or stopping, 'loss of several manhours, & the delay of a mission waiting on this repair Sir. This equipment calibration would have to be restarted from the beginning, and this is a time sensitive need' ... all those behind me moved away & moved on ... with the general admonishing his escorts as they moved away, that he wasn't there to interrupt the mission, he was there to observe how we do our jobs meeting the mission! Apparently I fulfilled that, because other than the usual break table give & take later on, I never heard anything else about it, LOL. I believe it comes down to prioritizing protocol vs reality - as others have mentioned, RESPECT! Know the circumstances & who or what you're dealing with!
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As an NCO with near 8 years experience in the Army. I have seen several E-9's, all of them I would dare say we're the epitome of professionalism. We're I in their shoes, I will do as instructed. Even as a young SGT, I find myself consistently educating new PLs/Pilots about they way we operate in the hangar. I do not tell them how to do their jobs, that is the CDR'S role. I ensure they are educated and advised so they make the best decisions for the unit, as is their role. With these experiences, utilizing appropriate tact and respect will never get you Locked Up, especially if they understand what an NCO really is... keyword is BACKBONE.
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I would say no, primarily to stir it up, and say what we all really know.
It is true that enlisted swear to uphold orders from officers appointed over them. If you are a Sergeant Major, there is a distinct line of who is appointed over you; you are by no means "second in command" as is a common misconception but at the same time... You technically don't fall into the chain of command at all! You answer to the Commanding Officer- your sole purpose is to ensure that he is safe, looks great, and is able to make the best decision possible through your advice... A 2nd LT is not involved in that system, nor is one ever appointed over an E-9 (if so, a rarity). SNCOS in general are there to advise the commanders to make the right decision. Demanding this in public or private is doing the service, well, a disservice, and will ensure that the senior enlisted may think twice about molding a good officer.
Essentially, if you are a commissioned officer, you better have a damn good reason for putting anyone above E-6 at attention in public. It has it's place and time, to be sure, but keep in mind what messages that sends to juniors, because there is a lot, like: do I respect this senior enlisted now? Do irrespective this micromanaging officer now? Do I want to get promoted? Do I want to reenlist? And many others.
It is true that enlisted swear to uphold orders from officers appointed over them. If you are a Sergeant Major, there is a distinct line of who is appointed over you; you are by no means "second in command" as is a common misconception but at the same time... You technically don't fall into the chain of command at all! You answer to the Commanding Officer- your sole purpose is to ensure that he is safe, looks great, and is able to make the best decision possible through your advice... A 2nd LT is not involved in that system, nor is one ever appointed over an E-9 (if so, a rarity). SNCOS in general are there to advise the commanders to make the right decision. Demanding this in public or private is doing the service, well, a disservice, and will ensure that the senior enlisted may think twice about molding a good officer.
Essentially, if you are a commissioned officer, you better have a damn good reason for putting anyone above E-6 at attention in public. It has it's place and time, to be sure, but keep in mind what messages that sends to juniors, because there is a lot, like: do I respect this senior enlisted now? Do irrespective this micromanaging officer now? Do I want to get promoted? Do I want to reenlist? And many others.
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As an enlisted service member, he/she should. That being said, any o-1 who gave that order would have to have the largest pair GOD ever put on somebody.
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By regulation yes. I once had the opportunity to see an O-3 attempt to "lock up" an E-9. I was in the SPT Plt in 1/33 AR back in 2000. We had just returned from a two week FTX and the BN CSM had held Bn formation and and put out that every swinging jack was to be out of Bn Ao in thirty minutes. The HHC Co had decided that because a work order for a pair of NVG's was not in the Arms room and until it was found. Well about twenty minutes goes by with the entire company standing in formation and the CSM pops his head out of the BN office and with some very colorful language asks what we were doing. The senior PSG proceeds to tell him and the CSM states that he will be leaving his office in three minutes and anyone still in the Ao will be trimming his grass because they can't follow orders. No sooner than CSM goes into the building then the Co CDR comes out and calls the company to attention. Halfway thru the commanders briefing then the CSM and LTC come walking out. The CSM is livid and Yells out "I thought I said for you F0*ks to beat feet. The Co turns and then proceeds to lock up CSM and tell him that it is his company and he will dismiss it when he is ready. CSM doesn't say a word just stands there at attention smiling. At this point we hear "Captain, A word please. CSM dismiss this company". You guessed it. The Bn Co standing off to the side wondering why a O-3 is dressing down "His" CSM and in front of the troops to boot. For the rest of that captains tour as commander he didn't go against anything that the CSM put out in a formation again
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CPT (Join to see)
Holy balls. To do that, in front of the BC!! Oh to be a fly on the wall during that convo.
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CSM Andrew Perrault
Let me get this straight to Co Cdr holds formation and is briefing the Soldiers and halfway thru the brief the CSM come out and interrupts his brief with colorful language? In my view the CSM was way out of line and so was his BN Co he should of never let the CSM dismiss the company and where the heck was the 1SG? All kinds of wrong here......
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SGT (Join to see)
CSM Andrew Perrault - I will admit that those of us in formation were unsure of what was going on. At the time none of us were really aware. The SNCOs were tight lipped and quiet about it. One of my battles did say that he heard our PSG mumble oh shit but since its second hand I can't substantiate it
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