Posted on Sep 13, 2016
Would an E9 comply if ordered to attention by an O1?
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I'm sure that once the CSM complied The young pompous LT. watched as his world melt around him while standing at attention in the Brigade Commanders Office. I truly believe that there should be a class for these young officers in OCS or there college ROTC program that teach these kids and yes I mean kids to respect CSM's not only for there knowledge but also for the simple reason that some CSM's have been in so long they remember when Jesus was a private. When these kids get there commission they think they are gods and they can treat soldiers like shit. What they don't realize is it's the soldiers that can make or break there career. In short do not mess with a CSM unless you have a death wish.
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I retired as a Navy O5. Some of the best leadership lessons I learned were as an O1-O3 from a CPO and/or USMC Gunny or above. These lessons were always delivered with "intense" respect that always impressed me as them being deeply interested in me being a better leader. I thought of them as my "Disney" moments. You know ... when you go to Disney you want to see Mickey. When in the military you haven't had the full experience until the Chief/Gunney has yelled in your presence ... and you are the only other person in the room.
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CDR Robert O'Byrne
Of course they did ... and to be clear, it was more an intense verbal expression than yelling though to an outsider it might be perceived as yelling or something like it. I always left the moment better off, not feelings hurt.
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MAJ (Join to see)
People like to come on the site and ask silly what if's. Much as my four years old nephew does.
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We Were Soldiers Deleted Scene - Soldier Stories (2002) - Mel Gibson War Movie HD
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I know this is just a movie scene.. but just imagine something like this..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-hLyUZS9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Q-hLyUZS9E
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Yes the E-9 should comply with the order to show respect for the rank.....then immedately knife hand the LT to death behind closed doors lol
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Out of respect for the officer, he would comply, but would explain to the young officer about TIME IN GRADE RESPECT
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My grandfather was a retired E7, I am now an O-4. I was told before I left for training not to be a 'like the lts he knew'. I rely on my senior NCOs, they are the reason I have made it this far.
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I can't think of a single occasion where I have been treated anything but fairly and professionally by NCOs or any time ever where I've even considered this "ordering to attention" as an option. If you find yourself having an unprofessional conversation with an NCO you are probably already six months behind in a game you didn't know you were losing.
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Yes, they would. After all, senior NCOs must set the example for the other soldiers. But if the E-9 was ordered to do so in a disrespectful manner or tone, it would likely end up with the 0-1 standing in front of the Bn. CO.
I've seen a lot of new officers forget that just because they happen to outrank someone doesn't mean they know more or don't have to show respect. That's why most of the best officers I have ever met are prior enlisted, usually former NCOs.
I've seen a lot of new officers forget that just because they happen to outrank someone doesn't mean they know more or don't have to show respect. That's why most of the best officers I have ever met are prior enlisted, usually former NCOs.
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I had this happen to me as I was walking into the McKellars Lodge on Ft. Bragg....IT WAS HILARIOUS!!! I think my laughing at him made him more madder!! I simply told the young LT that "Sir....This has been a very bad day...1st off...my wife told me that she wanted a divorce, 2nd...my teenage daughter told me that she was pregnant, SOOOO...I was thinking about killing somebody and I really may start with you!! The group of NCO's following him...ALL STARTED LAUGHING and one of the MSG's pulled the youngster aside and escorted him on in the lodge....my boss heard about the incident and literally fell off the tailgate of a HUMMV he was sitting on, then proceeded to look at the XO and told him to "go fetch the young DUMBASS and bring him to my office"!!! That was the first time a 2nd LT ever apologized to me!!! The kid has ended up being one of the best officers I have ever known!!!
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At AFROTC camp many years ago my PAS, an "old" (hey, I was 18 at the time!) Colonel with hundreds of hours in the F-4 over Vietnam (his second war), gathered all of the Cadets together one night and said, "Two years from now, when you have your degrees and gold bars, find some Master Sergeant to work for until that bar turns silver and you actually know something." (As an AF Brat, I had watched my Officer father threat all of his NCOs with respect, so the Colonel's words were not lost on me.)
Almost thirty years later, as a Colonel on the staff of an Army Reserve Division, I got a call from the Division CSM about something he believed I was doing wrong. My response, "Hold on about two minutes, Sergeant Major. I'll be right down." I went to HIS office, not asking him to come to mine, and he gave me a lesson, from the Senior NCO perspective, on how to do a better job on this task. Mutual respect across the board. His job at that moment, as a fellow team member, was to help me do a better job, and we both understood that.
Almost thirty years later, as a Colonel on the staff of an Army Reserve Division, I got a call from the Division CSM about something he believed I was doing wrong. My response, "Hold on about two minutes, Sergeant Major. I'll be right down." I went to HIS office, not asking him to come to mine, and he gave me a lesson, from the Senior NCO perspective, on how to do a better job on this task. Mutual respect across the board. His job at that moment, as a fellow team member, was to help me do a better job, and we both understood that.
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Being as the CSM can move every enlisted member around the bn that LT shouldn't do that end up with all the low performance types in his plt. My father told me about that happening in his bn
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SP5 Tom Carlson
I did have a new Lt. become the platoon leader. he stated nobody did anything with out his approval......... how do you think is review was 3 months later.
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I actually saw this very thing happen with one of my 1SGs and a newly minted 2LT. She tried to lock up the 1SG in front of most of the Company. UH-OH! And oh, boy!! did the sparks fly. She wound up in his office after he cleared the orderly room, calmly and collectedly, but you could hear him all the way down the hall at the other end of the barracks through his closed door AND the closed double glass doors to the orderly room! She never tried that crap again.
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Stupid subject...If provoking replies to this site by posting mostly hypothetical BS is the best that can be done, then perhaps this forum should fold. I think in the collective there's an overwhelming amount of intellectual base out here; therefore there's ample opportunity to provoke thought, stimulate the minds instead of posting crap that results in war story like replies.
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LTJG (Join to see)
Sir, you're right in the sense that RallyPoint is a very good resource with a very impressive intellectual base, but at the same time, this site is very diverse in regards to content. Not everything has to be so serious - and neither do the replies. Sometimes it's a "breath of fresh air" to throw completely hypothetical "off the wall" - "in what world" questions out there to see the reaction value. Some responses are serious, some are over exaggerated, and some are down right funny! It gets the community involved. I'm sorry you feel this forum isn't appropriate.
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CWO3 William Hanrahan
Perhaps you're right and I can lighten up. To me, having been a MSgt before I crossed over to the dark side, I can never...ever...imagine having some company grade officer treat me this way, or treating any Marine of any grade that way. Not to say that I haven't gotten loud before, and I did on one occasion as a CWO3 remind a Sergeant Major to check his collar as he was attempting to not get surly, but get uber authoritative and disrespectful. Thank you for the kind reply! Hopefully we can actually have a broader swath of agendas though with an actual "so what" that helps our brethren. V/r Bill
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CPT (Join to see) this question was heavily inspired by the most notorious question ever to be posted on RallyPoint. That and the many popular knock off questions below that.
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MAJ (Join to see)
I know I missed it- what was the most notorious question ever posted on Rally Point?
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medical spt for ROTC summer camp - mid 80s at FT Bragg, the hosting company D 82d Avn put a new kid fresh out of Jump School on arms room guard, and the following morning on his way to sleep made the mistake of saluting a Cadet, TAC Sgt saw this, called the entire Co to formation and chewed out the Pvt, telling him all the reasons that he will never salute a Cadet, #1 he outranks them all.....it was a glorious site to see.
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LTJG (Join to see)
Cadets do not warrant a salute. Until they earn their commission as an O1, they don't give orders.
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I once had a LT who said he was going to lock the heals of the brigade CSM. I quickly advised him that would be the biggest mistake of his career. Reminded him that BDE commanders choose their CSM and would fully back them
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LTJG (Join to see)
This is why prior enlisted Officers have such an easier time with certain things.. I doubt you'd find any Mustang out there who'd have the disrespect or stupidity to go toe to toe with a SNCO unless there was a distinctly valid reason.
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Silly Question, no O1 would ever try that... if they did the nearest Officer would immediately take them by the arm and escort them to a quiet location to explain the Career Suicide they were committing. This would not happen, the only way it would possibly happen is in private between a E9 and a Mustang who was a Master Chief prior and then it would be a one in a million thing..... Not gonna happen period.
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Technically, yes. As to what could happen, many things -- the best possible outcome would be a freshly educated junior officer with an abundant supply of humility for use in dealings with senior NCOs. I'm not sure what the worst possible outcome could be, because there is always the potential death-spiral of both soldiers deciding that they would not back down. I am fairly sure that the final outcome would be rougher on the LT's ego than the Sergeant Major's..
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One should respect the rank, always, and not necessarily the person. That respect goes both ways. The E9 should show respect to the O1 so as to never have to be locked up by said O1. Just as the O1 should respect the E9 and realize that the E9 has more knowledge and experience in his little finger than does the O1 and that it would be a huge mistake and detrimental to his career to lock up a senior enlisted officer.
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SSG (Join to see)
That's where people get it confused. Rank is to be obeyed, not respected. It is the person wearing the rank, and how they conduct themselves, that earns respect.
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1LT William Clardy
SPC Daniel Joslin and SSG (Join to see), one very important, albeit subtle, consideration on the issue of respect is that you should always default to respecting the person you are dealing with unless they prove themselves unworthy of that respect. If you go into a conversation treating somebody like an idiot, you can bet paychecks the outcome will be unpleasant at best. On the other hand, if you start every discussion believing that folks are generally respectable (and act accordingly), you may be surprised at how much even the sloths will try to live up to that unstated belief.
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SSG (Join to see)
1LT William Clardy - Oh, absolutely. I'm the type of person who respects everyone I come across until I have a valid reason not to.
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Not on this planet. You just do not disrespect that rank.
That reminds me of a story when I was in Germany and there was a bunch of E8s on my E5 five board selling gas coupons.
However, once, in a combat scenario, (me being a 1LT w/ 19 years, let my 1SG and Company CMDr know, in no uncertain terms, that the medical operations would run exactly as I wanted them to, that I did not work for them, and that although attached I am a battalion asset. Of course that was behind closed doors. We got along just fine.
That reminds me of a story when I was in Germany and there was a bunch of E8s on my E5 five board selling gas coupons.
However, once, in a combat scenario, (me being a 1LT w/ 19 years, let my 1SG and Company CMDr know, in no uncertain terms, that the medical operations would run exactly as I wanted them to, that I did not work for them, and that although attached I am a battalion asset. Of course that was behind closed doors. We got along just fine.
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That 2LT can try it, I'm sure it wont end well for him/her and most likely will never do it again.
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If my 0-1 or 0-2 disrespected my 1SG or SGM, that Lt would be moping floors and taking orders from privates. Do not fuck with my Top ncos. That being said, respect goes a very long way.
Just don’t be the new Lt disrespecting top Ncos.
No go
Just don’t be the new Lt disrespecting top Ncos.
No go
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Where I was a butter bar, most of my fellow lieutenants knew better than to show disrespect to a SGM. Except one.
This ‘brain surgeon’ complained that the gates of the motor pool weren’t opened wide enough for him to drive his POV through.
The E9 present said, “Sir, you could drive a fucking deuce and a half though that gate!”
And the LT responded “I’m a Lieutenant and you’re only a serg...”
He never got a chance to finish the sentence. I’ve never heard the word ‘fuck’ and the word ‘sir’ used in conjunction with one another as I had then.
This ‘brain surgeon’ complained that the gates of the motor pool weren’t opened wide enough for him to drive his POV through.
The E9 present said, “Sir, you could drive a fucking deuce and a half though that gate!”
And the LT responded “I’m a Lieutenant and you’re only a serg...”
He never got a chance to finish the sentence. I’ve never heard the word ‘fuck’ and the word ‘sir’ used in conjunction with one another as I had then.
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